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Larry Ragan: It's, it's a pleasure to get this webinar launched. This is the first of three webinars that will address our topics. I'll be going a bit more into that.

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Larry Ragan: My name is Larry Reagan. I'm honored to be your moderator for today's program. This is the first in the future.

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Larry Ragan: The future substance of STEM Education Project. We call it the Future of STEM on our project team and I'm pleased to represent

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Larry Ragan: Our PIs Punya Mishra and Ariel Anbar, give a wave. So they'll be on screen.

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Larry Ragan: And one of the things we thought we would do is play a very brief introductory video to give you some other names and a little bit of the context of the project. So let's start with that, if you would, Punya?

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Punya Mishra: Yes. Give me a second. Okay.

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Punya Mishra: Can you see the screen.

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Larry Ragan: Yes.

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Ariel Anbar: Recent events demonstrate that we live in a volatile, uncertain, complex, and ambiguous world.

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Ariel Anbar: Navigating this landscape, whether it be climate change or the current COVID-19 crisis, requires significant knowledge of science, technology, engineering, and mathematics, what we call the STEM disciplines.

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Ariel Anbar: But STEM is not enough. We won't be able to manage these unprecedented challenges for the opportunities they create

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Ariel Anbar: Unless we dissolve the traditional silos between scientific knowledge, essential skills, and human values.

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Punya Mishra: We believe that succeeding in this new emerging world requires new forms of knowledge and new approaches to learning. Our students will need to go beyond merely learning STEM content.

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Punya Mishra: They will need to develop skills of creativity and ingenuity and the ability to work with others collaboratively.

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Punya Mishra: And as importantly, they will need to understand the broader social and ethical context within which we live, and work.

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Stephanie Pfirman: Our standard curriculum in STEM often pays lip service to these broader issues.

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Stephanie Pfirman: We suggest that future STEM programs must embrace the challenge of integrating what we are calling humanistic knowledge and meta knowledge alongside traditional foundational knowledge.

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Stephanie Pfirman: And this must be done in a way that broadens participation in STEM so that we create a diverse workforce that can meet the challenges of the future.

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Trina Davis: So the goal of this project, and it's a big one, is to design the future substance of STEM education.

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Trina Davis: In the upcoming webinars and workshop we will both develop a richer understanding of these issues as well as engage in designing and creating programs that change how we see the content of STEM learning

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Trina Davis: Through this we will create exemplars for how these ideas can become reality in the future.

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Cathryn Manduca: These exemplars are models of programs that fully integrate learning in the STEM disciplines with the ethical humanistic and social aspects of learning required by our complex world, are central to our work.

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Cathryn Manduca: Working together in teams to build these models will allow us to more fully explore ideas and to communicate these ideas as higher education undergoes once in a lifetime change in the next decade.

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Larry Ragan: So, to jumpstart this process. We've made a series of webinars. These will service precursors to the workshop.

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Larry Ragan: We're really excited to have you along with us for the journey we're looking forward to your input. You can find more information about this project at STEM hyphen teachers.org. So let's get started.

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Larry Ragan: Thank you Punya.

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Larry Ragan: There we go. Terrific. So hopefully that gave you a little bit of a framing of the of the project and as several folks indicated in that video, we're going to be looking

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Larry Ragan: At these topics as these issues, roughly framed around this sort of knowledge structure concept and each in each of the webinars we're going to have two guests.

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Larry Ragan: Who will help us sort of explore some of those concepts, a little bit deeper. And we want to have a dialogue with you. So that leads me to some housekeeping details.

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Larry Ragan: You'll notice that the chat line is open. It's up, excuse me, we would like to encourage you to use that as a way to dialogue and communicate

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Larry Ragan: Amongst your, your participants, we will have one of our team members who will be tracking that and responding. If there are

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Larry Ragan: Thoughts or comments that come up there that need to be relayed back to the webinar panelists we'll certainly do that.

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Larry Ragan: But that is really intended for you to, to maybe use as a stream of consciousness or to have dialogue with other participants.

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Larry Ragan: We also have the Q&A tool available. Ariel will be managing that. He'll be watching for questions that might come in.

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Larry Ragan: Making sure that he's going to be able to bring those to me so that I can get them to our panelists.

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Larry Ragan: So we have those two ways for you to interact and I'm going to mention to you now. I don't want to mention, I don't want to forget. In the end,

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Larry Ragan: You'll also be getting a survey at the end of the webinar. I'm sorry, follow up to the webinar that will ask you

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Larry Ragan: To take to give us some feedback on how this program served to meet your needs. So with that, let's get we've got two marvelous guests today very excited to have with us, Katina Michael and Richard Pitt.

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Larry Ragan: And so let me just talk about Katina for a moment. This is a long title Katina

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Larry Ragan: So, stay, stay in there with me but Katina is a Professor in School of the Future of Innovation in Society in School of Computing

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Larry Ragan: Informatics and Decision System Engineering at Arizona State University. Marvelous to have you with us. I know you traveled a great deal to get here this morning. Katina is in Australia at this time, so welcome.

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Katina Michael: Thank you Larry.

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Larry Ragan: My pleasure.

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Larry Ragan: Katina's research domain is wide and varied and she really examines fascinating area of the social implications, the ethical dynamics and policy development at the intersection of the human body and technology.

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Larry Ragan: We're very much looking forward to her observations of this intersection and what it may mean for us as we move forward with STEM,

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Larry Ragan: STEM education. Also join joining us today is Dr. Richard Pitt. Richard is at UC San Diego. He's an Associate Professor of Sociology.

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Larry Ragan: And his research energy goes toward looking at the intersection of race identity and culture that can create barriers in STEM education.

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Larry Ragan: His work includes examining the construction and maintenance of social identity, particularly the intersection of social group identities, gender, race, sexuality,

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Larry Ragan: And religious, academic, and professional identities. Thank you both for being here. I think the combination of the lens that you both are approaching this

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Larry Ragan: Will be very interesting and helpful for us today.

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Larry Ragan: So I wanted to start off Katina perhaps inviting you to share a little bit of your background, I've looked into your background, which is fascinating. But I'm wondering if you could share a bit with our audience of what research you do conduct.

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Katina Michael: So I'm a telecommunications engineer by training and employment that began around the mid 90s.

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Katina Michael: And today, I take that knowledge and I explore transdisciplinary areas of expertise so unintended consequences of technology.

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Katina Michael: Will technology sort of influence the trajectory of society as a whole? Will society become technology? Look at neural link discoveries

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Katina Michael: And so what I'm looking at is this intersection. This transdisciplinary sort of field.

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Katina Michael: And really utilizing what I would call non-traditional unorthodox approaches to research. So I look at the biomedical sphere, for example.

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Katina Michael: But beyond that, also much broader. What does it mean to be human, the Hunus aspect as Michael Elders said, and also the whatness. What are we, you know, so these deep philosophical questions from the very much detailed engineering layout right to the top, Larry.

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Larry Ragan: So thank you, Katina. I think as I was looking at some of your videos and reading some of your materials what fascinated me was that the consideration

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Larry Ragan: Of how these dynamics interact and what we need to be thinking about. So some of the questions I'm going to come. Not right now. But in a moment is going to be exploring a little bit about how that

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Larry Ragan: That lens may influence what we need to be preparing our students for. So hold that thought. Thank you. Katina.

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Larry Ragan: Richard, if I can go to you and ask you for a little bit of background on your area, which is kind of related to Katina, but has a different focus around this idea of group identity and I think self identity is embedded in there as well.

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Larry Ragan: You're on mute.

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Richard Pitt: Thanks, Larry. Um, so it's exciting to be part of this conversation because sociology, my discipline, had a similar conversation. A couple years ago with the Social Science Research Council.

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Richard Pitt: And what we discovered in our conversations, was that we are

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Richard Pitt: Drowning in the humanistic stuff like that's what we do in sociology. Right. We talked about justice and equity and diversity and inclusion and

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Richard Pitt: Those kinds of things, but we struggle with trying to figure out, like what the foundational knowledge is what is the content knowledge we have to do when we're teaching sociology.

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Richard Pitt: But as a sociologist who studies STEM. We bumped into me and my team certainly bump into often this, you know, I'm going to call it a problem cause it feels like a problem.

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Richard Pitt: These sort of cultural logics and science disciplines, these institutional logics and science spaces.

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Richard Pitt: That are inclined to ignore humanistic ideas, things like things I care about like identity and affect culture, group processes inspire the fact that those things shape our decisions to be scientists, they shape what we find interesting to study, they say, what we find interesting to read

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Richard Pitt: And probably most importantly for people who are coming up in these disciplines as trainees and future colleagues and people trying to be tenured

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Richard Pitt: These cultural logics and these institutional logics ignore the humanism that's involved and what we value as science and who we value as a scientist so

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Richard Pitt: You know it's we feel certainly my research team, that if we can think more deeply about how to get science education, science spaces to move beyond or maybe not move beyond the sort of

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Richard Pitt: We are beyond or above values attitude right where everything is. This is means and rationality.

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Richard Pitt: Approach that that you know where we ask the question, what are the ends here, and how do we meet them and things like justice and equity diversity inclusion our human categories like

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Richard Pitt: Identity and ethnic, cultural process group processes. People are like, why do I need to know that. What does that have to do with meeting science and

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Richard Pitt: Where of course, I think we don't recognize that the value of certain kinds of ends, for example, knowledge is governed by values. So it really becomes important we argue

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Richard Pitt: To think about values and science and not just focus our attentions on content knowledge and critical thinking skills and ignore the fact that values shape, all of those things.

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Larry Ragan: So what's really interesting I think about the point you're raising is that we have a sensitivity right now in particular about the issues of race, culture, identity, and so forth. And I'm just wondering, Richard. Have we over

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Larry Ragan: Over hyped that dimension right now, but we've not addressed it historically in our education system. I guess what I'm asking is, have we actually removed it too much like issue of value, for example, is never going to go away.

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Larry Ragan: What do we do with that as we begin preparing new curriculum for students to be effective in their world.

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Richard Pitt: Yeah, I feel like we argue that it needs to be front stage right, it becomes an assumed thing people know why they're here. This is what we think
,

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Richard Pitt: People know why they're here, people have their values as they are doing their work.

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Richard Pitt: But what we we think really becomes important is that we need to put these things on the front stage right we need to actually address them.

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Richard Pitt: In the curriculum address them in the classroom and not make assumptions that everybody's on the same page, even

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Richard Pitt: In sociology and psychology, we assume everybody's on the same page, right, sociology, we care about these things. And we're all certain our students do assume we're all wacky commie liberals

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Richard Pitt: Who are trying to turn our students into socialists, but again, once you get when you unpack those things in the classroom you find out very quickly that these are complex ideas that need to be addressed in real ways. And I love that this moment that we're in.

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Richard Pitt: Probably is calling people to open their eyes a little bit differently. But you can imagine that we"ll move past this moment, very quickly. And if people do not codify these conversations and curricula. The moment will pass and we'll all just go back to our corners and students will

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Richard Pitt: Not learn

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Richard Pitt: In STEM classes and the kinds of things that we need them to learn to be ethical scientists to be scientists who think about the people around them, the context that affect their work and will be affected by the work

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Larry Ragan: So Richard. I'm just curious. Do you, do you ever see a value neutral environment? Is that what is that with the environment you're suggesting, let's get to the point where there are, because that and Katina. I'm curious, your, your domain is also value laden right value value based

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Larry Ragan: And I'm still struggling with how do we wrestle with that is, we're going to be asking our participants to go out and

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Larry Ragan: Their projects are going to be developing

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Larry Ragan: You know curriculum maps, curriculum plans for these various

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Larry Ragan: Projects there'll be working on. How do values fit into that because we all bring values to the table. I think

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Richard Pitt: Go ahead  Katina.

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Katina Michael: Thank you. That was just a beautiful introduction there. I might say, um, I would just like to add that, uh, we all have different

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Katina Michael: values that are created by different environments and different markets and different economic systems and they're not homogenous.

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Katina Michael: Communities are not one. It's not the old telecommunications model that says build and , they will come. It's one

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Katina Michael: And don't worry about asking anyone what they think. We just know what we're going to do, because we're going to make this much money from it is a business case is not driven by economics it's driven by humanity and we are disconnected at the moment from the person

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Katina Michael: We are looking still at this industrial revolution model that says it's the masses. Well, yes, we need to cater to the needs of the masses, but in the masses of communities of interest, communities of practice that needs to be

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Katina Michael: unpacked and unlocked and allowed to breathe, and at the moment we see

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Katina Michael: It as homogeneous markets are homogenous. You know, we talked about the market in China and the market in America and the market in Africa and Europe.

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Katina Michael: And that's how I developed skills or the wireless market or the wireless broadband market when I was in telecoms 25 years ago and we still think that mentality is going to work in the 21st and 22nd centuries, it's not

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Katina Michael: Because we can have shared values. Now, you shall not kill you know shall not starve yourself to death, there's a there's a common innate inherent qualities in human beings.

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Katina Michael: But then when we say this technology should work this way. Well, it'll be different to the First Nations person in Canada to the Indian in

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Katina Michael: In country, you know, we've we've we think that 'nation' is 'country.'

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Katina Michael: We disassociate and we we put political labels on things, when in fact we've lost touch with the here, where am I? I'm currently situated in a local place. It's called Jaringan

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Katina Michael: It's an Aboriginal name Jaringan, New South Wales in Australia. But what about the people that inhabit Jaringan. What are their current cares? Well, I can tell you what their current care is its suicide.

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Katina Michael: It's the prevention of young people as victims of suicide. The town has painted itself yellow at the moment.

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Katina Michael: In acknowledgement of the five deaths that have occurred in the last 10 weeks.

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Katina Michael: And so that's the need of the city and the little town, my two and a half thousand person town. It's not what's happening overseas in a different market and so

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Katina Michael: Technologies got to respond to needs. If we are saying user centered. If we're saying person centered as methodology.

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Katina Michael: Then we've got to live up to that we've actually got to talk to somebody, not a marketing survey where you ring up or you you try somebody internet cookies.

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Katina Michael: That's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about real problem identification real challenges that are local challenges and sometimes. Yeah, they could be

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Katina Michael: Scalable internationally, there may not be, but we also want communities driving their own solutions. We don't want to be wearing the hat that says "I'm waving the flag of the values that I impose on you" that's colonialism.

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Katina Michael: What we want is to empower the communities to build for themselves. That's what we need. And so that's where I talk about values, Richard and and that's really been ignited by your opening comments.

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Richard Pitt: That's often the funny part of this, right, is that I think we compartmentalize, right, I teach college students undergrad college students

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Richard Pitt: And, you know, occasionally a science student or two will wander into one of my classes.

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Richard Pitt: And often wander into my classes

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Richard Pitt: In a very reduced opportunity way because of the structure of the STEM curriculum that sort of drive them to take

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Richard Pitt: This many classes and there's very little opportunity sometimes to take the humanistic kinds of courses right, they get to take a perspectives course as part of Gen Ed right they have to take a

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Richard Pitt: Arts course as part of Gen Ed, but there's very little opportunity outside of the actual Gen Ed requirements to go any deeper

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Richard Pitt: And two things that again will cause them to challenge their own sort of values that they bring to campus from home, their values around science and what

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Richard Pitt: Should happen in science spaces. There's just little opportunity for them to have that exposure, just because of the structure of STEMeducation outside of the curriculum that you folks will be developing. And so, you know, we often argue that science majors should

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Richard Pitt: All be encouraged to consider a second major or minor in the arts and humanities, because again, not only do we find that the general average science majors, not getting this stuff in their coursework.

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Richard Pitt: Because they are now double majoring 25% of students are now double majoring many of them at

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Richard Pitt: selective schools.

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Richard Pitt: The people who double major in two STEM disciplines. They take virtually no social science so they don't wander into sociology classes at all.

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Richard Pitt: And even their humanities and arts courses aren't giving them exposure to ethics and emotions and identity and culture and what students aren't capable of doing.

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Richard Pitt: Is applying the knowledge that they might take in my sociology of the family course of my sociology of race course from my sociology of religion course or my sociology of gender course.

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Richard Pitt: They aren't capable of taking that knowledge and then when they're sitting in their organic chemistry course applying what they learned in my class to that context.

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Richard Pitt: So that they can sort of think about oh well how's gender structuring what I'm hearing in the organic chemistry class. How is race structuring

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Richard Pitt: What I'm hearing in the organic chemistry class, it becomes very compartmentalized because the message they hear from me and sociology are not being echoed

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Richard Pitt: In organic chemistry or not being echoed in calculus are not being echoed even in civil engineering, where again you're talking about spaces that people live in an engineering those spaces.

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Richard Pitt: The students who we interviewed who do civil engineering argue they don't encounter these conversations, even in an engineering discipline that is not talking about rocks and physics and

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Richard Pitt: Mechanical things but it's actually talked about the lived in and inhabited states it's it's astounding to me sometimes.

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Larry Ragan: We're just a

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Larry Ragan: Lot of different directions to go here, but let me let me address it.

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Larry Ragan: A comment you made Richard and Katina I'd like to get your insights on this as well. One of the things this project is attempting to do is to look at the integration of these experiences of the of the humanistic and we'll be talking about the meta how we learn stuff later.

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Larry Ragan: In instead of are there alternatives to the model of having students take as you said, Richard, you know, my, my science curriculum over here. And then my sociology curriculum over here.

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Larry Ragan: What are the opportunities as we're starting to think out, project out about writing these curriculum.

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Larry Ragan: Models in Maps. What are the opportunities that these things get better integrated. So when I'm taking my organic chemistry and I'm learning about, I don't know pollutants, or whatever it is.

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Larry Ragan: I'm also bringing in topics of society and privilege and so forth, because it's all intertwined Katina, if you don't mind, I might start with you, and then go to Richard

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Katina Michael: Yes, I have so many ideas. I mean great opportunities, the school I'm part of has about nine joint hires. So we live in two schools.

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Katina Michael: And also have more workload, I perceive as a result, but it gives us a footprint into two different places. It allows us to bring students from across disciplines together into courses. I'm teaching one course right after this call.

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Katina Michael: That is a smart city infrastructure and technology and we have engineering students and social science students and effective and architectural, one religious student who's joined us.

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Katina Michael: And what's happening is incredible. It's a fluency and it's not the social scientists teaching the engineers. It's also the engineers going hey social scientist we care about the future. This is how we think about it.

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Katina Michael: So there are wonderful opportunities in joint hires. There are wonderful opportunities in bringing students from across curriculums, across disciplines. But that requires a lot of hard earned work in convincing chairs to

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Katina Michael: Accredit basically the courses that you're offering that are cross disciplinary there's a lot of opportunity for public interest technology which is a New America Foundation.

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Katina Michael: Trajectory, you know, what is the public interest? And what is this thing, you know, we have public interest law, public interest journalism. What's this public interest technology, why should large firms like IBM and Intel actually care about it.

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Katina Michael: And so we've created a curriculum in the Masters of Science, which is there to embrace people from

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Katina Michael: All the way from NGOs right through to private enterprise. I've got people pinging me from a cross sector industries from large transnational corporations, you'd be shocked.

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Katina Michael: Who are wanting to learn about responsible innovation.

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Katina Michael: Then there are Institute's like the IEEE the Institute of Electronics and Electrical Engineers that have a society dedicated to the social implications of technology. There are opportunities.

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Katina Michael: To bring ethics and society issues within all courses, not just a single course that ticks the box for a bit.

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Katina Michael: That accreditation body in the US or they're shutting Computer Society or the British Computer Society.

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Katina Michael: There are opportunities as Richard said to bring in diverse students who by their own trajectory and volition will bring in these issues and will raise their hand and say, but what about social justice.

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Katina Michael: What about about child impact. What about the environment with justice. What about risk. What about privacy and security by design, and the more people at the table. The more that can be a constructive dialogue. So I want people to think about the macro level.

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Katina Michael: Okay, international governance structures international ethics approaches.

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Katina Michael: Approaches on the for example the governance of artificial intelligence which are being led by people like Winter Wallach, and Gary Martin at ASU.

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Katina Michael: Then at the meso level where a lot of hard work is happening at the institute level where people are saying, look, we need to do ethics in action value based alignment in the development and construction of technologies and at the micro level.

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Katina Michael: It's about us figuring out, as humans, what our values are. Okay, it's gone are the days where everyone believed in the 10 commandments.

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Katina Michael: And so what's the what are our new commandments, you know, if that's not a shared understanding today. What are our shared values, because what I don't want to happen is that people grow up maybe as as belief systems influence maybe by Buddhism, Hinduism.

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Katina Michael: Even spiritual practices in Aboriginal communities and then they get to work. And I think I've got my first job, you know, I'm one of those underrepresented minority students

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Katina Michael: Who have made it I've cracked this poverty cycle. And I've made it through. And I've been given scholarships, and I've taken them. And I've done. Great. I don't want them to take off the jacket when they go to work.

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Katina Michael: And they go, you know what, when I turn up. This is, this is me. I'm going to just hang it up and now I'm going to somebody else. And this is the inner conflict of the human

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Katina Michael: That as we go through these hard curriculums we stopped writing poetry. We stopped becoming elaborate and expressive why?

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Katina Michael: Why aren't we encouraging expression, encouraging actually the mixing of different perspectives as if what are we scared of?

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Katina Michael: And and this is where a lot of education has to happen to the accreditation bodies as well they do want to go forward with social and ethical value systems they do want to say to embedded in the curriculum.

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Katina Michael: But they need ideas from us and then we need to go back to them and say, Now, take it seriously. If they do not meet these standards or these

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Katina Michael: Things that we've we've put forward then don't accredit them, you know, come on hard proof that you actually espouse issues of gender issues of underrepresented minority issues of whatever

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Katina Michael: But this is a great opportunity for us to influence the gatekeepers perhaps at the school level, who have control of the curriculum.

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Katina Michael: It's an it's it's there to challenge our, our general computing professionals who are teaching who say ethics. What's that got to do with me has nothing to do with me or I'm going to give ethics.

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Katina Michael: Zero credit points because they just have to do it. Don't worry if they don't turn up. And don't worry, don't try hard.

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Katina Michael: That attitude has to go out the window actually ethics is the most important part of all of this, I feel, because otherwise we don't even know what we're building and why we're building and where we're going. So these are just some thoughts.

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Larry Ragan: Terrific.

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Larry Ragan: Thank you.

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Richard Pitt: My response is Amen.

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Larry Ragan: So, so, Richard. Yeah, it was very, very well said there's a lot there what I got out of that was. It was a list of of

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Larry Ragan: techniques and strategies and Richard I didn't know if there's anything on there that you wanted to, to build upon. Katina mentioned multiple methods of this sort of this integrating views and thoughts and perspectives of

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Larry Ragan: The humanistic dimension into into the sciences, any, any others? I just want to give you an opportunity to respond to them.

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Richard Pitt: I agree with all of it.

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Richard Pitt: I one thing that I like about sort of the various approaches to doing this that Tina was just talking about is that it becomes a generational dynamic

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Richard Pitt: Right if if people start putting these things and seeding, to some degree, you know, you can't shove it into the curriculum, but certainly seed the curriculum with these ideas then undergraduate

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Richard Pitt: STEM majors will start to be like will start to hear them, start to value them start to make the important connections we're talking about and undergraduate STEM majors become

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Richard Pitt: Graduate students in STEM, which means if in graduate education where we have more control over what people are taking as part of our curriculum. What we do is we them require them to take a course team taught

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Richard Pitt: Initially by a social scientist or a humanist, but eventually you know there are I can't see the number here.

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Richard Pitt: There are number of people in this webinar right now who care about these issues, who are not

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Richard Pitt: People who are like, I don't understand, please just tell me what we're talking about entirely when we're talking about humanist

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Richard Pitt: Dynamics and humanistic knowledge. Right. There are people in this space, who care about this and have lots of knowledge in these areas, it is about freeing them to do that and graduate training so that the people who eventually become faculty

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Richard Pitt: Aren't recreating any wheels when they're trying to do this and then their undergraduate classes and then their graduate classes. So it becomes generational

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Richard Pitt: Where we teach it to undergrads, undergrads events will become graduate students and faculty who then teach it to undergrads who become and then we don't have to do this, like, Oh, how can we sneak it into the curriculum.

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Richard Pitt: Right, it becomes normative and sociology, we like every discipline have our dead white men and it's always been Marx and it's always been Durkheim, and it's always been Baber

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Richard Pitt: But people have said, hey, what about DuBois? For example, and they're all a bunch of people throw up their hands and say, I don't know anything about DuBois.

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Richard Pitt: But then some people were saying, I guess I'll learn a little bit about DuBois and once we teach DuBois in our undergrad classes and our graduate classes. Now we're in a situation where everybody has DuBois in their curriculum right there.

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Richard Pitt: theory courses, etc. Right. And so I think what it takes is the kind of people who are in this webinar saying I care about these issues.

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Richard Pitt: And I'm going to be the first person to include this stuff in my classes, which means students will hear it and value it

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Richard Pitt: And move on into higher spaces to become again the next generation to do it at a higher level than we do it, who will then be in turn

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Richard Pitt: Producing the next generation will do it at even higher levels. So everything we're talking about is not oh let's bring in some experts and we'll do this for the rest of

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Richard Pitt: Eternity right it is if we start doing it now three generations of science from now it'll be normative it'll be the cultural logical will be the institutional logic.

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Richard Pitt: You know, based on just sort of how is isomorphic pressures work we have to do as Katina, saying, and have the accreditation.

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Richard Pitt: Organizations coerce us to act like we're supposed to act, that's fine.

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Richard Pitt: But I would argue that when Harvard and Yale, and Princeton start incorporating this into their STEM training the medical normative

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Richard Pitt: isomorphic pressures will flow and the rest of us will magically find it more valuable will magically find it easier to do either because, again, the people who we take our lead from as institutions have shown that it has value. The rest of us will fall in line, it's, it's like magic.

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Richard Pitt: But it's not like magic. It is human nature. It is organizational nature.

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Richard Pitt: We just have to, you know, take this thing that we can't care about and do with it the same way, we've done other things we cared about in science.

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Larry Ragan: You know, it strikes me, and this is maybe not a great analogy but I'm just thinking if if you've got a plant that is that is

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Larry Ragan: Having difficulty, so we can either spray the the top of the plants and kill whatever the bugs or we can put the material into the soil and make a system

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Larry Ragan: And in from from what you're both saying is we need to be turning our attention to the systemic methods.

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Larry Ragan: Of integrating these these topics together rather than just spraying the top of the leaves which which are eventually going to drop off and I, Richard. I love the idea that you're mentioning of

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Larry Ragan: You know, once we begin then that cycle in a may not, it's not going to be overnight. It's going to be five years, seven years. But over time, it's going to build

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Larry Ragan: If, if the two of you could sort of brainstorm with with me for a minute. What are the methods that you might suggest as our curriculum planners our curriculum mappers will be doing here.

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Larry Ragan: In a couple weeks. What are some of the strategies that you might suggest they consider for for this process of bringing in you know the values based understandings for integrating the humanistic

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Larry Ragan: I've seeded a little bit because I've been thinking of one, as you've been talking, this is nothing new. But, you know, the idea of two different

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Larry Ragan: Faculty members from two very different disciplines co-instructing. Of course, not I think Richard YOU REALLY WANT TO MENTION NOT, after I'm done my piece. Now you do your piece, but we we sort of do it together.

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Larry Ragan: Has has that work Katina. I don't know if you've had experience with that kind of a model? And are there other ideas we can begin helping our audience write down strategies?

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Katina Michael: This scenario, Larry. I think that's a great idea. I have team taught, particularly in Australia. It's something that people do by default.

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Katina Michael: That the curriculum is structured as such in case someone gets sick or in case there is a need a direct need for interdisciplinary. Let's take a machine learning course, for example, it's a great opportunity to teach hardcore machine learning, but also the ethics of doing that.

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Katina Michael: And having two people from two different disciplines to do that or somebody who's bursting two disciplines coming in and teaching that is a wonderful opportunity.

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Katina Michael: I would stress coming off what Richard said as defining this as an opportunity for problem based learning as opposed to mastery of skills. Right. It's very much deliberate pedagogical approaches, different outcomes based learning.

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Katina Michael: But if you look at it from a problem based learning perspective, it means whatever skill set, you bring to the classroom. You can actually apply it to the same problem.

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Katina Michael: And so I often think about the teaching, research nexus. How is it that people really learn, you know it is by talking to others. It is by

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Katina Michael: Experimenting with something. But when you bring people together in teams cross disciplinary teams. They are encouraged to talk

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Katina Michael: In an ontology and that actually they understand where they develop they create a fluency. And so there's this cross polinization to continue the plant.

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Katina Michael: Notion and what you want is that the problem based learners

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Katina Michael: Are actually the trailblazers they're exploring from their own head, their own mindset their own skin.

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Katina Michael: Their own understanding of the world around them and they're not contained or straight jacketed to say, you must think using this framework know develop the framework.

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Katina Michael: Is the traditional frameworks we've used to do a problem identification or requirements analysis, maybe in the software engineering process or the systems engineering process. Do you agree with the rubric?

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Katina Michael: And if not offer me another lens. What is that lens? What does it contain? and so I often think when students are encouraged to talk to real people.

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Katina Michael: They create the ethics application. Yes, at the undergraduate level. We've done it before. It works and people own the problem they own the the case study, they own that thing that they are learning about

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Katina Michael: There's ownership there and then they realize there's a responsibility that

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Katina Michael: Often we we try to teach responsible innovation in a in a vacuum that says, see this that's responsible and that's not responsible. You can watch a movie.

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Katina Michael: To understand that and movies and science fiction have become very interesting since some paper based research that's come out of saying it does work. It does.

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Katina Michael: A connect with students, but when the student is actively learning and participating in research, even at the undergraduate level.

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Katina Michael: I feel that they come face to face with the real issues. And that's what I want. I want people to have a reality check. We've got too many academics in academia.

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Katina Michael: That have never worked in industry have never had exposure to real subjects understood the ethics and care required. And so it's the ethics of

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Katina Michael: Care for oneself, the ethics of care for ones team. You're the group that you are in the organization you're part of the community, the countries, the space that you live in.

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Katina Michael: The subjects that you interview, you have a responsibility to yourself and all of these other entities.

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Katina Michael: And so that's what I want. I want us to be grounded in the reality because often we're building

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Katina Michael: For like I don't know. I really don't know what's motivating the invention yes discovery is, you know, done studies emphasis have done studies on this. I actually want us to invent and innovate for need right that's a totally different equation.

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Larry Ragan: What I love about that. And then I see Ariel's, come on here. So I'm going to give him an opportunity to insert a question and come back. That's here Ariel first

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Ariel Anbar: It's not as many questions, want to let you know there's a lot of Q and A showing up questions showing up. So we should probably move to move to that model in a minute that we can we can shift back and forth as needed.

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Ariel Anbar: Okay, so, and I'd like to suggest to everybody. So the way we'd like to do the Q and A. I mean, if you have a question or discussion point, put it an A, type it up.

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Ariel Anbar: And if you'd like to actually instead of me reading it if you'd like, and said, for you to present your point. Just raise your hand and I will, I will promote you to a panelist. And we can see hear you it'll be a little more personal.

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Richard Pitt: And can I follow up on what the team was saying quickly before we

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Richard Pitt: Move to Q and A. So I've also team taught courses. I've taught them with psychologists and I think people would assume Hey sociology and psychology, you know, they're really close to each other there, you know, that's just an overlap and I think students were

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Richard Pitt: Surprised, especially in the course on gender when I taught as a sociologist about gender and my colleague taught from a psychologist perspective about gender.

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Richard Pitt: Just how different we were, but we came together in some common spaces. But the most important thing about both of the classes that I team taught and this goes to Katina's real world.

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Richard Pitt: Piece of this conversation is that I and my two colleagues across these two courses recognize that we are academics.

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Richard Pitt: Primarily right everything we know about everything is because we read it somewhere. Not because we experienced it in real terms, whether it was my social entrepreneurship class.

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Richard Pitt: Or the class and gender where we were talking about gender and how gender operates in these spaces and then these ways that neither I nor my colleague knew. And so what we did was

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Richard Pitt: Again, wonderfully my institution gave us the resource for this, but it doesn't take a lot of resources. We all understand zoom now people will do lots of things for free on zoom. You don't have to bring them in.

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Richard Pitt: And put them in a hotel. What we did is, every week, every other week we brought in a real life person who is dealing with these things that we are trying to encourage our students to think about

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Richard Pitt: And those real life people then talk about the stuff that we said in class and whether or not it would work in the real world. Right. And so

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Richard Pitt: I think one of the things that we could do to do this in a required course, not in the extra course that the interest that people will take but a required course.

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Richard Pitt: Is a team talk course by two experts who are academics, but coming from different perspectives, which is also resource to bring in people from industry people from government

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Richard Pitt: People from non for profits who are also wrestling with science in the same ways, thinking about how important it is to have a black woman on their team, important it is to think about

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Richard Pitt: What poor people how they will respond to

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Richard Pitt: You know Facebook is hiring all these people who are thinking about, well, how do we get different kinds of people to

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Richard Pitt: Encounter what we're putting on the screen right? Bringing the people in whose job it is to think about those things in industry in government in nonprofit science.

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Richard Pitt: Is useful because it shows students this is not just an ivory tower concern by some

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Richard Pitt: You know world change or scientists who are hired in the academy, but these are actual things that people who work outside of the academy have to wrestle with in real ways and therefore, those things are important that these students are going to one day be them and not us.

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Larry Ragan: Richard, that is a great link between a note, I wrote down as Katina was talking about. She said, "talk to the people, talk to that audience" and you just described a strategy a method of doing that.

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Larry Ragan: Where you're identifying the individuals, the potential client or the customer, whatever you want to call them and bringing them into the experience to hear firsthand from them. I think it's more of a list.

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Larry Ragan: Ariel. Can we go to you, and I'm not sure what the best method might be, but I'll leave that to you.

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Ariel Anbar: First. So again, if you have a question type it up there, a lot of great questions typed up and if you'd like to ask an in person and raise your hand and we're going to model that we have one person's brain for that.

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Ariel Anbar: Assume that tourists Gerald promotes you to panelists.

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Ariel Anbar: Will turn on your microphone and camera and instead of me reading your question. You can just ask it. Let's see if this works. Lizette you are on, you need to unmute

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Lisette Torres-Gerald: Hi, thank you. I'm so I just appreciate what Richard and Katina have shared. I'm a huge proponent of all of this. I've been pushing my

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Lisette Torres-Gerald: STEM faculty at my institution to think about these things and it's taken a few years, but I think there's a little bit of traction and some more open night mindedness here.

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Lisette Torres-Gerald: I've experimented in the sense that we have a first year undergrad seminar where it's open to whatever topic the faculty wants to do. So I've taken that as an opportunity to talk about

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Lisette Torres-Gerald: science communication and engagement, but infusing social justice power and privilege issues with the men.

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Lisette Torres-Gerald: And it received a bunch of positive feedback from students, it's what they kind of want and what they're thinking about in terms of yes they want to do science, but I think a lot of them are also thinking about how they can impact their communities directly

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Lisette Torres-Gerald: I think the challenge though is this mindset in STEM where

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Lisette Torres-Gerald: And Katina I think you mentioned this, this focus on content and mastery of content. And so when I talked to my colleagues about these issues.

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Lisette Torres-Gerald: They're like, well, we don't have enough time. Or there's so much content. We need to cover in order to and then they run the list off of, you know, they need this, this, and this, in order to get into pre professional school and so

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Lisette Torres-Gerald: How can we do this without having to infuse, create entire new courses, which I think is the challenge for some of my colleagues, especially in smaller institutions where the funding and potentially the institutional support isn't exactly there. So my question is, do you have any suggestions.

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Larry Ragan: Thank you, Lizette.

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Katina Michael: Definitely. I think that's a great question. And congratulations for staying that conversation in your faculty and it does take years. But before you know

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Katina Michael: The same academics who said "ethics is not my problem, and I invent" put their hands down and say, you know, I was approached the other day to say something and they asked me about ethics.

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Katina Michael: And I said, Of course they did you know you've created a swallowable camera capsule that takes endoscopic film of somebody's innards.

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Katina Michael: There's an ethical issue here. And guess what, and you can say a lot of positive things because people don't have to go under anesthesia, but the way to do it is exactly what you said.

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Katina Michael: It's about integrating the foci. Let's call that social justice in your case, it's to embed it in the assessment.

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Katina Michael: Is not to create additional courses or subjects or fields it's to embed it in the question and you know what I find our young people are so switched on, they are thinking different to our generation.

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Katina Michael: And that's where I'm encouraged that you just have to give them a bit of a nudge, and they shock you with what they come up with. One of the examples we have in our Consortium for science policy and outcomes that we're members of is integrating

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Katina Michael: Every representation possible that we can with the resources that we have, for example, how do we get a homeless person to be part of a research project. Why is their voice important

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Katina Michael: In what about low socio economic challenges. How do we go about that. But it's, I think, underlying this I wanted to say the word respect 1000 times during this conversation.

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Katina Michael: It's respect. It's all about respecting people doesn't matter the context. Doesn't matter how they self identify, doesn't matter.

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Katina Michael: Whether they have millions or they have nothing.

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Katina Michael: But everyone everyone's voice, you know, our school's motto is the future is for everyone. I truly believe that in the social justice room. But how do you embed this and then excite people because what I don't want

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Katina Michael: Is what has happened, time and time again in the last six months where I've had colleagues who do things like

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Katina Michael: IT and social issues, right, information technology and they've said to me, "You know what, Kat I had 216 students. No one turned up to my class.

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Katina Michael: They were too busy doing their C plus plus assignment because the rigor of that during COVID was so complex that they thought I can't afford the time to go to that lecture, I'll download it later."

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Katina Michael: Can you imagine had demoralizing that is for a lecturer to turn up and have zero because they've been told by the other faculty. That's not important. And we've got to stop this.

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Katina Michael: Every academic is important, every discipline is important and soon.

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Katina Michael: Computing will be embedded everywhere. You know, we used to have a business. Well, guess what everyone is its business now computing is embedded in business. It's not I business a business, whatever. See business in business is business. Same with anthropology.

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Katina Michael: And the big organizations have to step up and say these sociologists, these anthropologists, we need them desperately in our companies, not just the STEM.

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Katina Michael: And what we're seeing in Australia happen is that the cost of doing a non STEM degree has almost doubled.

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Katina Michael: And we're trying to funnel people into stem. Well, that's not the only people we need. Yes, we need to integrate all of these people within STEM but STEMs going to permeate across disciplines. It's called digital humanities.

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Katina Michael: It exists today this digital theology this digital this and that well soon we're going to drop the word digital, it's just going to be humanities again. But this is a critical conversation and we are all at that moment.

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Richard Pitt: Yeah.

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Richard Pitt: Some of it goes back to this this thing that I said earlier about in science we have this ethic around means ends and what we have decided the ends are is only foundational knowledge.

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Richard Pitt: And if we have decided as a whole discipline. The only thing that matters is foundational knowledge that's the end.

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Richard Pitt: Then we focus on what means get us to those ends. I think some of the challenge of the folks in the room is to figure out how to make justice and

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Richard Pitt: Diversity and integration and identity and culture and group processes and cultural competencies, a means to the science end

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Richard Pitt: Right, that's, that's the challenge, right, is to not say, oh, this is another end that we're trying to get at. And so let's try to figure out some means to that end.

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Richard Pitt: Right. Science is better when we think about

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Richard Pitt: The race of the people we're dealing with, or the race of the people who will use our products etc. Science is better if we think about the gender of the people who will use our products or the people who we are studying

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Richard Pitt: Right as the vaccine companies are struggling today to figure out how to find subjects who are black and brown to make sure that they produce a better vaccine.

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Richard Pitt: Right, if we had taught many of them that well black people do not trust science in the way white people trust

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Richard Pitt: Science, like black people are not going to take, given what happened at Tuskegee, black people are not going to take your vaccine to see how this plays out.

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Richard Pitt: Right. And that is not like mystery knowledge that is knowledge that we've certainly know in sociology classes and you certainly know in psychology class. We certainly know in history classes that can be taught in an introduction.

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Richard Pitt: To biological methods course right and so, so some of this again is not thinking about

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Richard Pitt: Justice and ethics and other things are different end and we have to figure out cool ways to get that stuff taught, we need to think about the end is good science. The end is ethical science. The end is comprehensive diverse

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Richard Pitt: Integrated science. And if we think of that as like what we need to get it at the end, then ultimately, then people smart people. Right. Scientists are smart people right then.

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Richard Pitt: Aim at trying to figure out what the means are. To that end, that is an end about science. It is not an end about justice as an isolated thing. It is not an end.

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Richard Pitt: About Equity, Diversity and Inclusion as a separate end. It is the means to the end of better science. So I don't know that we need to

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Richard Pitt: Sort of think about different ways that I guess this is the challenge for you all, is thinking about different ways to help people recognize that

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Richard Pitt: These things that we're talking about our means to the same and that people are being promoted for, that people are getting jobs to pursue etc and not carve it out as a different end right as the sort of equity ethic, as opposed to the science ethic.

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Larry Ragan: Wow, okay.

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Larry Ragan: Well, if they gave me a list of topics I oh I know you got some more questions on there.

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Ariel Anbar: There are so many questions. Yeah, we just have a whole day on this right here

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Ariel Anbar: Till we exhaust Katina and Richard, unfortunately.

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Ariel Anbar: So I'm gonna go back. I'm gonna go first questions posted because it's germane to something that both you just touched on.

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Ariel Anbar: And it's a question. It's from Jacqueline Kelly and I'm going to torque just a little bit Jacqueline if you will forgive me so that what you posted was interesting to me is that

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Ariel Anbar: Onto the efficiencies in our graduates. So that's what the industry really wants

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Ariel Anbar: Why the disciplines still resistant to integrating these perspectives and what I'd like to maybe toward that a little bit is so first of all, is that correct, is that really would industry wants

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Ariel Anbar: Right from your perceptions, I think, I think it is missing, what you said, but let's talk a little bit and then

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Ariel Anbar: The why is maybe interesting academically but how do we bridge that right. How do we maybe get departments to better understand what industry really wants if that's indeed what industry really wants

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Ariel Anbar: Richard you suggest a few strategies of bringing guest speakers in but

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Ariel Anbar: More systemically what

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Ariel Anbar: What, what else can be

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Ariel Anbar: So this industry, academia gap.

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Richard Pitt: Yeah, so just like you said right industry says they want some things and it feels anecdotal and it's not anecdotal right? Enough reports are going out, whether it is the fact that every industry leader every industry organization in STEM from bio med to creation of dinosaurs is thinking about

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Richard Pitt: Is creating EDI offices right is having people run around and talk about implicit bias and forcing people to take courses on implicit bias in every science organization in this country.

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Richard Pitt: Right. And so to pretend like, oh, you know, nobody cares about that stuff all the organizations care about that stuff because they need people who

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Richard Pitt: Once we, they work very hard at diversifying their workforce. They need people who

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Richard Pitt: You know, take advantage of that. Now we have a diverse and inclusive and equitable workforce without undoing it and the reason why they want an equitable, diverse and inclusive workforce is again because they believe

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Richard Pitt: It makes the science better. Right. And so I think we don't have to look very hard in the academy. We're just resistant to it.

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Richard Pitt: Because our accreditation organization said content content foundational knowledge content foundational knowledge.

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Richard Pitt: But again, we tell them what we plan to do and how we plan to do it. So even if they say

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Richard Pitt: foundational knowledge foundational knowledge foundational knowledge. The task is for us.

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Richard Pitt: To recognize that our students will go out into the world return and show us

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Richard Pitt: That, yes, the students have foundational knowledge, but we all talk about meta knowledge students don't know how to learn and students don't know how to do critical thinking and the students who don't know how to do critical thinking, most are the science majors.

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Richard Pitt: Right, because we focus on foundational knowledge and ignore that employers don't need people to know the very specific foundational knowledge that we obsessed with

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Richard Pitt: They need people to be able to think critically, when there's a puzzle in science and then solve it in a creative and unique way.

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Richard Pitt: And then the same way we can focus all of our attention on foundational knowledge, making sure that they know I don't know enough actual science that you can wander down this path.

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Richard Pitt: But how widget fits with the widget exactly to get this outcome. Again, if employers say we will teach you that if Facebook says

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Richard Pitt: If engine says we will teach you some of the very specific foundational science knowledge because we are very specific in what we do here. But what we can't teach you is how to be a human being an ethical

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Richard Pitt: Smart thoughtful human being in our space they expect we're teaching that

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Richard Pitt: Right, just like with everything everything I learned. I learned in kindergarten right employers don't

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Richard Pitt: Employers want kids, you know, employers what people who who are thoughtful and know how to go to work and raise their hand to do

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Richard Pitt: To speak and those kinds of things. That's not taught in the workplace. They expect that we're teaching that in school. And so in the same way that we recognize that employers want this, as evidenced by the things I said, we should include that as foundational knowledge.

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Ariel Anbar: Thank you. Thanks, Richard.

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Larry Ragan: Ariel?

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Ariel Anbar: Katina did you want to comment on that briefly?

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Ariel Anbar: In th interest of time you have to be brief but go for it.

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Katina Michael: Very very brief beyond industry right non government organizations, not for profits.

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Katina Michael: Large, scale small scale businesses, government agencies standards bodies. There's a complex value chain here that we need to unpack

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Katina Michael: And many of us don't understand who the stakeholders are to begin with. So industry, as Richard said is vital.

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Katina Michael: And I want industry to look beyond just the skilled engineers.

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Katina Michael: Whom they believe know everything, and can be turned sales people can be turned into something else like designers something else, like, you know, whatever it is, at that front end, but in fact

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Katina Michael: Letting themselves down. We had one employer come to visit us two years ago hyping up these transnational opportunities, the social scientists in the room raised their hand. I'm graduating

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Katina Michael: Will you consider me I'm a student of the Masters of Science and Technology Policy, I can offer this. The response was no would rather you be an engineer, then go into the social science space which is an interesting you know example of one company. Sorry Ariel

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Ariel Anbar: No, that's

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Ariel Anbar: That's great.

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Ariel Anbar: So I know that there is this challenge of how do we systemically make this connection, right, which I think is a is a vexing one

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Ariel Anbar: I'm going to pivot to a question. Michelle Kovarik, has her hand up. So I'm going to let her ask it directly if she's willing to and if she's willing to make it pithy, but it's a question. I think a lot of people have a lot of faculty have when they are

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Ariel Anbar: Thinking about the charge. I think Richard. You were the one who said

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Ariel Anbar: You know, just do it in your classroom. Just, just start doing it right, to see if we all start marching down the path and that will make the change. So, so, Michelle, did you want to ask the very practical question that you have?

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Michelle Kovarik: Yeah. Hi, thank you. Um, my question is about how as a chemist, I can responsibly raise some of these issues in the classroom. So I feel like my colleagues in sociology and the social sciences and humanities.

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Michelle Kovarik: Have the experience of being in graduate courses where they have these conversations about race and class and social justice and I don't have experience with that outside my informal life and I want to make sure I'm doing this in a way that's responsible to my students. Thank you.

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Richard Pitt: You talk about ethics and then I'll talk about identity and

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Katina Michael: That's a wonderful segue, Richard. It's

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Katina Michael: It's the process.

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Katina Michael: That you're involved in, and I think I often think about

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Katina Michael: little nuggets of information to begin with. And you might build on that year on year or every time you build you run the class.

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Katina Michael: So initially just may be things that you say it's it's modeling behavior, appropriate behavior. It's, it's quite simple things that don't take a lot of effort.

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Katina Michael: emphasizing the importance of an IRB emphasizing why you do this process in terms of human subjects and also in your case possible animal research down the track.

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Katina Michael: Also give them a bit of an insight into the trajectory parts I find this very interesting when you talk about

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Katina Michael: You know when you get into this role or when you do this down the track, but when you get into active academic research in your masters or your PhD, give them a vision of the possibilities and then connect

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Katina Michael: With these things that you're talking about, even if their personal experience. I actually find that's what the students

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Katina Michael: Are hungry for what happened to you. When did you figure this out, you know, often talk to them about being turned inside out and they go, What's that, and I say, well, you know, when you're in a corporation.

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Katina Michael: And you're developing an understanding of the world around you and then something just happens and you reflect was that good or bad or should I have done that.

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Katina Michael: That's a critical, you know, light bulb moment. But then you're sometimes on the edge, watching and observing in and observing out and then you're on the outer and you're observing the organization and it's change.

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Katina Michael: So it's it's telling them about what you feel not being afraid that that's wayward.

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Katina Michael: You know, obviously not hijacking an hour of three hours in a class to do that in a undergraduate chemistry but it shouldn't be fundamental principles, I think, and nuggets to begin with as you get more confident

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Katina Michael: But I'm sure your classes are awesome. That's what I'll say because you're considering this

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Richard Pitt: Thanks. So

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Richard Pitt: One of the

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Richard Pitt: So thanks for the question. And Ditto what Tina said you asked the question, because I think you're a person cares about it. So this is exciting. Right. That's the first thing right to find chemists who care about doing it right.

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Richard Pitt: So this, this is an issue right for any of us who care about diversifying stem, etc. Right. Is that we find that black and brown people and women.

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Richard Pitt: Are running the biology, which is a science. So the conversation about, oh my god, nobody can do science. Well, they can

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Richard Pitt: Right I you know they run to medicine what medicine requires organic Chem medicine requires biology and calculus. Right, so they certainly are capable of doing science.

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Richard Pitt: The question is why are they interested in pursuing a major in science or career in science and again it's specific science. It is chemistry. It is physics. It is math.

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Richard Pitt: The disciplines that argue that unlike biology we are full, and with human beings. We're not feel full and with

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Richard Pitt: Animals and ethical anything right. We're talking about rocks. We're talking about elements and we're talking about mathematical processes which creates the challenge for people who care about this to go beyond their own experience. Again, it's not going to be in your training.

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Richard Pitt: Right to go beyond their experience and ask themselves and their colleagues and read the literature that explains why some women.

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Richard Pitt: Why some black and brown students why some indigenous people why some working class folks who don't have parents were engineers have found their way into chemistry, physics and math and persist.

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Richard Pitt: But what is it that they find in that space that they have latched on to. And I'm telling you, you know where to find it is people who are who graduate

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Richard Pitt: In these majors chemistry, physics, math from historically black colleges and universities.

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Richard Pitt: From Hispanic Serving Institutions from Smith and from Spelman right where these places are full of chemists and physicists and mathematicians who have figured out how to turn black and brown people onto chemistry, physics and math.

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Richard Pitt: How to Turn women on to chemistry, physics and math and engineering. Now at Smith, right, those places. Those people have had to work or else they would have no majors.

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Richard Pitt: Right and so instead of you or any of us who are working at very different institutions that knows right struggling to recreate a wheel of how do we talk about

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Richard Pitt: These things in disciplines, where they're not naturally there like even biology or bio med go to those places where people have been very good at turning black and brown people

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Richard Pitt: Turning women on to these very sciences.

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Richard Pitt: That don't seem to have a space for them or that they would certainly argue in other context mine at UC San Diego or Vanderbilt, where they would say there's no space for me here, then how did those places value graduate

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Richard Pitt: Folks in those disciplines every year. And some of this is because they have figured out how to center those people's experiences and concerns in the curriculum, not as some side hustle, but it's something central to what science looks like.

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Richard Pitt: For them in their communities.

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Ariel Anbar: That I

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Ariel Anbar: That's great.

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Larry Ragan: I suspect

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Larry Ragan: We could as Ariel said go on for a couple days with these questions. Ariel I want to give you the chance if there's any last question, you can maybe

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Ariel Anbar: Whether it's. So there's one question here that could be a good exit question depending on how you want to end this Larry

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Larry Ragan: Yeah, that'd be fine. Okay, sure.

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Ariel Anbar: So, so, so this is a question Kate McCord if the goal is to infuse humanistic knowledge into STEM education. What are the markers of success. And how will we know when we reached it if when we've reached them.

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Katina Michael: Could you reread the beginning part of that Ariel?

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Ariel Anbar: Sure. Sorry.

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Ariel Anbar: If the goal is to infuse humanistic knowledge and STEM education. What are the marks of success and how we know if and when we've reached them.

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Katina Michael: I think that one of the great markers is going on, what Richard just said once we see some kind of representation in our schools.

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Katina Michael: Of various groups of people, we will know you know most STEM schools in Australia have a representation of maybe maybe 15 to 20% women.

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Katina Michael: Then you look at senior personnel in organizations, again, a representation

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Katina Michael: How many of them come from underrepresented minority groups, it's one factor. It's one way to measure, but you know if

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Katina Michael: schools and universities are talking about changing the emphasis and and saying, you know, we really respect people, and yet the

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Katina Michael: Evidence doesn't show that we can attract people, you know, from Justice groups or other groups to come and study through scholarships. Why, you know, and so I think once we see better representation across the board STEM is just not for smart mathematicians. That's a misnomer.

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Katina Michael: And once we see more representation across the board. I think we can at least say right once we see companies hiring.

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Katina Michael: Non STEM students with STEM skills. That's an additional hope. I think for the future. Once we look at, you know, once we stop the rhetoric that we all going to become cyborgs.

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Katina Michael: And we start talking about nature and things that matter like fires and other disasters, natural disasters that we can perhaps slow down something with our chemistry or with our knowledge of STEM then I think that's that's a positive way forward.

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Richard Pitt: I

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Richard Pitt: I like that we are great data right

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Richard Pitt: I think the way that will know that we've done this better is exactly what Katina said like Equity, Diversity and Inclusion will not have to be a process will not have to be a project, it will be where we are right.

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Richard Pitt: Research. I was just looking at this earlier that a study on attrition from the academy revealed that women leave the academy in greater numbers I mainly focus on women in STEM.

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Richard Pitt: Because they conclude that the characteristics of academic careers are unappealing.

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Richard Pitt: The impediments they will encounter as women are disproportionate to them and the sacrifices they will have to make are too great.

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Richard Pitt: And so much of that have all three of those things is a function of science only caring about science in terms of quote unquote foundational knowledge and not caring about being

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Richard Pitt: A scientist at something really critical to how science is operating. Right. And thinking about like how can we make being a scientist more appealing.

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Richard Pitt: To people who have the foundational knowledge and the capability to be assigned to us.

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Richard Pitt: And so I think like the way that will know that we've gotten this better is that students will sit in science classes in their freshman and sophomore years.

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Richard Pitt: And say, this is a place where I can be me and learn science and be like the person in the front of the room.

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Richard Pitt: But until we get to that place right where science is just learn the equations. Learn the models, people are going to be as again we find out why people say they choose majors right they choose majors for instrumental reasons social reasons.

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Richard Pitt: And then expressive reasons, right, it feels like me. I have experiences that have informed us. I can contribute in meaningful ways if

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Richard Pitt: People are coming into science courses and only experienced science and never seeing themselves in that space.

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Richard Pitt: Either in the way science is explained to them or in the way science is applied to the world, then we will lose them. And when we see that we haven't lost them. I think we will have evidence that we have moved past just doing science for science thing.

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Ariel Anbar: So so so we often

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Ariel Anbar: It's often sort of said or implied that

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Ariel Anbar: By making science more diverse, we will improve some of these humanistic

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Ariel Anbar: Qualities of what we're doing. You're actually flipping it around, right, you're essentially saying, look, if we want to sell the diversity problem we need to make science we confuse humanism more into science that is one of the main ways that we're going to dress the diversity problem.

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Ariel Anbar: I think most STEM faculty we don't. Don't think about it quite that way. That's powerful.

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Ariel Anbar: Larry all yours.

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Larry Ragan: Okay. Thanks. Ariel

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Larry Ragan: Thanks for that.

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Larry Ragan: For channeling the Q and A there. I've also looked down through the list. There are many questions. We could spend the rest of the afternoon on but but we're gonna

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Larry Ragan: We're going to beg off first let me thank our, our panelists Richard and Katina for joining us today. This has been fascinating and

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Larry Ragan: I think gives us a really good

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Larry Ragan: Foundation, not all of the answers, of course, but at least the mindset about how to go in and approach our projects in the future.

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Larry Ragan: Which I'm hoping as we get near to completion. Richard and Katina, we might impose on you again to take a, take a look at and provide some feedback. It would be marvelous to have you involved in the project that way.

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Katina Michael: And can I just say this it's been a priviledge

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Katina Michael: Actually, to be in this webinar with Richard

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Katina Michael: I just an absolute privilege. Thank you Richard for sharing that with me.

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Richard Pitt: This, this has been my best thing during COVID to have this conversation

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Richard Pitt: And to have it with Katina. Who I didn't know who is just brilliant. So, so thanks for inviting both of us.

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Larry Ragan: Terrific. Well thank you both for being here. You're both were brilliant. Let me just tell you a couple things. If I could just remind you, there is a survey that we're going to be sent out and

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Larry Ragan: Ariel. I don't know if we can get that survey posted to the end of the chat space might be one way to do it. Oh, we've already got it. Awesome, thank God.

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Ariel Anbar: It's there ever will send by email will send it out via email also

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Larry Ragan: Awesome. Thank you. And also, just to remind you this Thursday at 2PM Eastern time, we're going to be looking at meta knowledge, we're going to have Candace Teal and LP Weber with us.

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Larry Ragan: Same dynamic conversation will be promised. So with that, I want to sign off Ariel or Punya, would you like to say anything. In conclusion,

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Larry Ragan: To say something

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Punya Mishra: Yes, thank you. Thank you Richard and Christina and all the people who participated in the fascinating chat along the way, great questions that we could not get to

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Punya Mishra: But just to say that this is the first of, you know, three webinars that we're doing. And then, of course, there is the week long workshop. So there will be many more opportunities to dive into

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Punya Mishra: These questions and issues and none of those and a big part of the fun of it is that none of those are easy. These are truly not complicated

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Punya Mishra: Issues but I think ones that are absolutely imperative and I'm just excited and I think I speak for Ariel and Larry to be a part of this team, which is engaged in this work. And thank you very much for joining in.

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Ariel Anbar: And thanks to all who participated in the in the chat and ask questions and even those of course who just just tuned into to hear what saying what's being said as well. Hopefully feed into expanded thinking for a very natural workshop. So thank you very much for taking the time.

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Larry Ragan: All right, thank you. Team. Thank you all. And we'll see you this Thursday.