Kurtis Burmeister: And then, good morning, everybody.
Kurtis Burmeister: Welcome to the last of the
Kurtis Burmeister: We got the closed captioning working to. That's great. The last of the kind of Saturday by monthly webinars and discussions designed to help support transitions to online teaching environments for field camps this summer.
Kurtis Burmeister: The. This has been a remarkably successful endeavor. And I just kind of wanted to take this opportunity. I have a feeling that most people are going to be
Kurtis Burmeister: Watching these online later but wanted to share my my appreciation for everybody that's been involved in this project.
Kurtis Burmeister: You know, I was I've been talking with folks for the last couple of weeks and
Kurtis Burmeister: You know, over, over the course of this project we've worked at some time or another with as many as like 350 geoscience field instructors and I have never
Kurtis Burmeister: Worked this smoothly and you know this openly with so many people and it's been really encouraging and kind of a big positive on and otherwise really stinky situation.
Kurtis Burmeister: kitties here. Could you let Katie and
Chris Atchison: Yeah, okay.
Kurtis Burmeister: Yeah, so, you know, I just really wanted to appreciate how open. Everybody has been how willing to share and support one another. Everybody's been it's just been a wonderful experience. Um, a couple of announcements today. Number one, we are at about 30
Kurtis Burmeister: Activities submitted and pass through peer review to this point. They've all been posted to teach the earth.
Kurtis Burmeister: Activity reviewers say there's only one more currently in the pipeline, but I've been talking with FIELD, CAMP folks and instructors through a number of different capacities in recent weeks.
Kurtis Burmeister: And it's my impression that there might be a handful more that are currently in the finishing upstage for one reason or other, mostly
Kurtis Burmeister: It has something to do with the fact that a lot of folks are really busy right now with teaching their own online camps and
Kurtis Burmeister: I am in the fourth week of the Wasatch Winter Camp right now. And yeah, there's no time left at the end of the day for these types of things. So
Kurtis Burmeister: If you have an activity that you're still working on or if you know somebody who's still working on an activity. Please don't give up.
Kurtis Burmeister: Just come back to it and finish it off when you have a chance. We will keep the submission portal open into the fall because we still have some stipends available and we're happy to give those out and
Kurtis Burmeister: I really have a strong belief that these tools, these online tools are not going to outlived their usefulness. One of the summer ends that they're going to be remarkably useful.
Kurtis Burmeister: During the next academic year as more and more campuses start to realize that, yes, they're going to need to be doing distance teaching again.
Kurtis Burmeister: So yes, they're going to be useful. This coming academic year, and hopefully a support activities in future years. When we return to traditional face to face teaching modes, but
Kurtis Burmeister: Yeah please continue to submit those as they are finished up. The last thing I just wanted to leave you with.
Kurtis Burmeister: Chris Acheson and I and a couple other fine people are working to move forward. Oh, and Kevin blacks who is here as well are working to move forward on an NSF proposal to the I use program in August to support safety in the field.
Kurtis Burmeister: This kind of builds on the things that Kevin and I have been working on with regards to physical hurts and harms.
Kurtis Burmeister: And the it will include kind of emotional and
Kurtis Burmeister: Oh, those words Scott disappeared, emotional and physical
Kurtis Burmeister: Sorry, physical hurts and harms and then emotional and psychological traumas as well so
Kurtis Burmeister: This kind of comes on the heel of the heels of the emergency, if you will, meeting that we had. Following the release of the video by Josh Rhea relating his experiences running into white supremacists in the field.
Kurtis Burmeister: This, I think that the time is now to really kind of take a bold move on these types of things. So we're moving forward on that and
Kurtis Burmeister: If you weren't able to go to that emergency meeting. We just got permission from an a GT to begin posting those things on the website. So we will get the recording from that.
Kurtis Burmeister: Impromptu session up so you can review it and if you're interested in contributing ideas and whatnot. We'd love to hear from you. So please reach out to Chris or I
Kurtis Burmeister: I think that is about it. So today we originally had two folks scheduled for the presentation today. But unfortunately, Virginia is not going to be able to make it.
Kurtis Burmeister: She has unfortunately found herself in the need to recover and won't be joining us today. But she did say that she would be interested in recording
Kurtis Burmeister: A video since she's in Germany that if she does is, is able to get that done. We will definitely post it to the page as well so you can see what she's been doing with virtual teaching in Germany.
Kurtis Burmeister: But today we are fortunate to have bazell bazell. I think this is appropriate. This whole endeavor was bazell idea so it's it's
Kurtis Burmeister: It's a very, very appropriate that we finished off with him today. So we're going to have a presentation on
Kurtis Burmeister: A activity, actually, a group of activities that Faisal and his team have been working on and then we'll open it up to discussion after that for whatever remaining time people want to stick around.
Kurtis Burmeister: So without any further ado bazell like that pass it off to you.
Basil Tikoff: Thank you. I'm going to share with you something we call the sage and flat exercise.
Basil Tikoff: It.
Basil Tikoff: Was a group effort, a big group effort where somebody said it's the best use of unpublished data that they'd seen in quite a while. This is 20 year old data that we never got around to publishing and we thought it would actually make a really great
Basil Tikoff: Virtual exercise. It was designed for a fall capstone class, but I just accelerated it and got it ready so that people could use it as sort of a capstone for their Summerfield camps go the next slide.
Basil Tikoff: So the simple setup here is there's a drastic gluten then intrudes the Precambrian through Cambridge and
Basil Tikoff: conformal section of strata graph of the photography in eastern California in the White Mountains. There are two published maps of this area, they do not agree with each other to go the next slide, you'll see the cross section through their the top one by Holland hurts.
Basil Tikoff: The east side there's familiar the Northeast sides, but this West Side is interpreted as a faulted thrust bolted
Basil Tikoff: Contact between the certificate fee and the proton, whereas the lower Bilodeau and Nelson isn't true to is interpreted as an intrusive contact
Basil Tikoff: Next slide.
Basil Tikoff: And it comes down to what's going on on the western margin. And what's really interesting here is the maps don't agree with each other so
Basil Tikoff: Alan class and her had some undergraduates, looking at this and they made simplified maps to sort of highlight the differences between those two map areas. So we decided, and so this is because of my work with Tim Shipley
Basil Tikoff: Who is a cognitive scientist at Temple University and postdocs working with him to turn this into a
Basil Tikoff: Really, how can we do feel times a little bit better. How about if we evaluate the uncertainties in our data, but also the uncertainties in our model and more fairly report that so it's really kind of
Basil Tikoff: Map like a mash up of cognitive thinking about uncertainty in the field and just interesting geology.
Basil Tikoff: Next slide.
Basil Tikoff: So,
Basil Tikoff: What's interesting about this is that it's trying to reproduce the process of science. It's not trying to be a field camp exercise, per se.
Basil Tikoff: Although I think it works well as one each day introduces a new data set that the people who made the original maps didn't have. So the students realize they're doing something new.
Basil Tikoff: And then each one requires a daily reevaluation of what they don't know. So for instance, on day two, we look at detailed fabric data in the blue town.
Basil Tikoff: On day three, we look at geologic data coded for uncertainty on the west side of the blue Don day for has gravity and version. And then they five talks about regional faulting, I'm going to go through these quickly so you get an idea of of these new data sets.
Basil Tikoff: The central theme of the module is uncertainty, what you do and don't know for instance the gravity data is very different from field data field data is very good on the details, but has no control on depth.
Basil Tikoff: Gravity provides a control on death, but is a relatively course tool. So it has to be treated in a different way.
Basil Tikoff: As a result of suggestion from the walls that you went I we're going to make a powerful video of all the PowerPoint presentations so that the instructors don't have to do any sort of back knowledge if they're not as well acquainted with, for instance, gravity data.
Basil Tikoff: Next slide.
Basil Tikoff: So again, I just wanted to lay out this very clearly what's interesting about the way it's set up is, for instance, on day two, you create a cross section.
Basil Tikoff: On day three, you create a strip map even and you use three different data sets to make that strip map.
Basil Tikoff: On day four, you make another cross section because you realize cross section made on day two was wrong.
Basil Tikoff: And then on day five, you make another cross section because you with another data set, you realize that the cross section you made the day before it is wrong.
Basil Tikoff: And then the idea is on day six, you write up the results. So this idea of keeping bringing in two data sets and how that influences your thinking is sort of key to this exercise. Next slide.
Basil Tikoff: So I'm going to just go through day by day. This is just in case people want to use it. So they know what's available.
Basil Tikoff: The one caveat to all this is I've assembled all the materials. There's assignments for some days. Those are available.
Basil Tikoff: There are all the free maps like the USGS Toto maps are available, but I can't get to though, or the copies of the geologic maps. Those are both GSA maps, but they're only about $20 you can share them with your students. If you want to buy one a beach
Basil Tikoff: So day one has one of these overview, plus it has an assignment that is used for this Google Earth Kanzi
Basil Tikoff: I got spend Morgan to give a 15 minute video explaining the geology of not just agent flat, but the entire white mountains and their evolution through time and the students work to fill that out. Next slide.
Basil Tikoff: So here's the Google Earth image. What you'll see is two maps laid on top of the other, the top one is the Holland earns map. The bottom one.
Basil Tikoff: Is the Bilodeau and Nelson map and you can turn on and off those maps. In fact, this whole KFC file. There's a huge amount of information you just turn on and off what you need for just that particular day
Basil Tikoff: Next slide.
Basil Tikoff: On day two. This is where we introduce the two modules done in collaboration with the cognitive scientists
Basil Tikoff: And it also, in particular, introduces this evidence meter. This is something I picked up originally from Bob Dodd.
Basil Tikoff: And have sort of developed a little bit which is basically how strongly do it, how good is there an observation. So there's a PowerPoint.
Basil Tikoff: For this data uncertainty, then there's a PowerPoint about fabrics, because we're going to evaluate data uncertainty in with respect to Ms or and I saw the magnetic susceptibility data.
Basil Tikoff: And what's nice about MS data is we can use simply dispersion, which is how widely the fully Asians are linear functions very. There's also data on mineralogy and micro structures and then all of this is put into Google Earth through color coded
Basil Tikoff: Maps. And so the students are going to make a cross section through the Pluto on using data that wasn't available before. Next slide.
Basil Tikoff: Here's the evidence meter, you can see we're going to ask them for any particular piece of evidence they have. Where are they so you go from permissive suggestive presumptive and compelling are things where there's a range of data. So permissive being the least
Basil Tikoff: High quality data suggestive is better presumptive is that it's more likely right than wrong. So that's kind of a useful one. And then compelling is the
Basil Tikoff: strongest evidence. Notice that there is a no evidence in a certain, but there's no variation and those right because you're either certain or you're not certain, there's not like I'm mostly certain that's mostly certain is compelling.
Basil Tikoff: Alright, so that's the evidence meter that we're going to apply. Next slide.
Basil Tikoff: So we first allow them to sort of test whether they can really use these concepts and this is in the PowerPoint by saying, for instance.
Basil Tikoff: Is it possible that these rocks the UCF part of a strike slip zone and the top one is more is compelling because there's horizontal
Basil Tikoff: flicking lines. The bottom one. However, although they look like normal fault. It's still permissive that that's the strikes the fault system.
Basil Tikoff: And a flower structure. So you have to accept that you don't know, even when clearly appears one way. So again, these are just sort of things that are embedded in these PowerPoints to help the students evaluate them. Next slide.
Basil Tikoff: Here is the Foley ation data from the ATMs. I bet you can tell even from this view that the yellow are the most widely dispersed data. They're the least they're
Basil Tikoff: Probably suggestive at best data given the amount of dispersion in those data where the blue is the most compelling data they have the least dispersion
Basil Tikoff: Next slide.
Basil Tikoff: They three also talks about an evidence meter, but it talks about an evidence meter for models, rather than for data.
Basil Tikoff: And you'll see it's a little bit different. It also evaluates the western margin and it does it by comparing the two maps with new data from a geologist, which is me walking along that margin and saying what is actually on the ground at these different places.
Basil Tikoff: And then saying how sure. Am I that that's really what's their next slide.
Basil Tikoff: So these are the stations that I made that will help the students constrain well distinguish between the, the other two models as well as provide more evidence for other things. Next slide.
Basil Tikoff: Here's the evidence meter for models. So what we also wanted to include is how can you tell how can you evaluate one model versus another. First, the evidence meter, you'll notice it's certainty is not possible with a model if it's certain if it's certain that's not a model.
Basil Tikoff: And no evidence is also now possible. And then the question is, you know, how does the data, the quality of the data relate to the model because the worst, the data is of course the worst. The model is
Basil Tikoff: What's interesting in this case there's two different models. There's already two different published papers. Neither one of them can be better than suggestive as a model which is an interesting take on it. Next slide.
Basil Tikoff: We go through the model and never certain and then we talk about how you choose the goodness of a model based on several criteria which are below. Next slide.
Basil Tikoff: Dave for introduces subsurface data. This is gravity. Again, it's a course tool, but it's data, you don't have otherwise. Next slide.
Basil Tikoff: This is the gravity data. The yellow points or the gravity stations, the white lines or the ice packs this data eliminates one of the two models. It shows that it just can't be right. So it'll be interesting to see if the students get to that point. Next slide.
Basil Tikoff: The last field day is one well so called Field Day is one where they talk about normal faults, which, although they've been looking at this map for some days. My guess is they won't be thinking about normal faults and then they're going to have to make another map when they realize
Basil Tikoff: How ubiquitous, the normal faults are within this area. Next slide.
Basil Tikoff: So on the left you can see there's a area where there's a small bit of tertiary basalts that are systematically offset.
Basil Tikoff: The right side shows those same faults so serious about five fault, you can only see them were there in the basalt that you can't see them in the granite.
Basil Tikoff: But all of those faults are striking directly towards the sage shampoo time which is a little bit of pink at the bottom of the screen.
Basil Tikoff: So you think of, they must go through that Pluto. Then, next slide. So we go through. We draw suspected fault and we have the students evaluate how sure they are
Basil Tikoff: Of the faults. Some of the fault do occur on some of the geologic maps. Not all of them and others don't. But there's again evidence for and against. Next slide.
Basil Tikoff: And then the idea then is, how do you synthesize this to make up your own data and then next is this you just write the idea then as you write this up.
Basil Tikoff: As in the last six day has a full scale report, including cross sections and interpretations and about an explicit evaluation of the two models with respect to each other, against your third model or a model that will be produced by students
Basil Tikoff: All right. That's all, thank you for let me go a couple minutes over there occurred.
Kurtis Burmeister: And I'm done. My pleasure. We have plenty of time for questions. Does anybody have any questions for bazell
Kurtis Burmeister: Kevin has one actually. Basically you Kevin. You want to go ahead and unmute and
Kevin Bohacs: Sure.
Kevin Bohacs: I mean, it's nice to support GSA with the maps. Do you
Kevin Bohacs: Give the students hard copies or just high Rez like PDFs or images. So, that kind of thing.
Basil Tikoff: Yeah, so that's great question. The, the rep, the GSA did a very nice job scanning maps. So the concept would be to just give them the digital copies of the maps.
Basil Tikoff: What's nice about this exercise is we're not trying to hold any data back. In fact, the ideas look going lurcher find anything you want, you know, do whatever you want and
Kevin Bohacs: For all it may help you
Basil Tikoff: Yeah, exactly, because without the data which is unpublished it's really hard to do anything else. So it's a very, it's a kind of a different philosophy from a normal FIELD, CAMP exercise, but
Kevin Bohacs: God how perfectly applicable to the way they will be living their life as a scientist right so very nice, very nice.
Basil Tikoff: Guy and that was exactly the purpose of what we were trying to do that. So we'll see if it works.
Basil Tikoff: I look for results from other people did decide to use them.
Kurtis Burmeister: I agree with Kevin. This is a really nice activity and we've actually adopted this for us at the Wasatch went to camp. And I think we're slated to start on
Kurtis Burmeister: Friday think Thursday or Friday of this week. Is that right, bizzle
Basil Tikoff: You told me Thursday. So that's what I'm
Kurtis Burmeister: Gathering today. Yes, it is to say that
Kurtis Burmeister: Oh, right.
Kurtis Burmeister: Oh, Shannon. Please go ahead.
Shannon Dulin: With your great baseball. I love this. And, but I have a question for. Do you think this would be appropriate for senior level like intro to few methods class as well. I don't have any feeling for the geology of this area very much
Basil Tikoff: That's a very good question. Um, students vary a little bit. My guess is it's better as a capstone, which is to say they have gone through an introductory field activity.
Basil Tikoff: Or field activities and then they're trying to synthesize so this is trying to shoot a little bit above
Basil Tikoff: Them not worrying about like strike in depth, and how do I see these geometries together and more thinking through
Basil Tikoff: The process. I would think some of the other tools are being developed like virtual worlds or something would be might be more appropriate at the introductory to field methods level.
Shannon Dulin: Okay, when when you teach this, how do they respond to the ATMs part because I'm a paleo mad scientist. So I know that
Shannon Dulin: That's ridiculously hard to understand a bit like what's the level that you tell them to, you know, think about that data.
Basil Tikoff: Yeah, that's a great question. I thought long and hard about that I've turned it into just fully Asians and linear nations, so
Basil Tikoff: They don't even
Basil Tikoff: In some sense, it does not matter.
Shannon Dulin: Okay, what
Basil Tikoff: Are the magnetic fabrics or not. So the idea is you just add each of these places you to up between five and 10 measurements of the best you could. And that's dispersion so
Basil Tikoff: Okay. Doesn't matter that it's a you did it on a core versus on a different rock.
Basil Tikoff: That's all they're evaluating. So, and, in some sense, they don't need to know the PowerPoint does go through that.
Shannon Dulin: In case.
Basil Tikoff: People aren't familiar with that so they can talk about what the data really is. And what's nice is it is real data. But for all intents and purposes is really just multiple measurements.
Shannon Dulin: Okay, awesome. Gotcha.
Kurtis Burmeister: So yeah, I think just to kind of jump on there. I agree with bazell that regarding the level of this complexity of this project we've been, you know, my, my staff and I've been going through kind of day by day. These activities and getting them ready for implementation in our field camp.
Kurtis Burmeister: But as, as I've been going through these activities. What's really struck me is if you wanted to kind of incorporate them into an intro level field class like like you were asking initially
Kurtis Burmeister: There, each one of these components by itself could be really cool little activity and its own and you know I my immediate thoughts when I was
Kurtis Burmeister: Going through like the the part of the module where they're comparing the two different maps or when they're looking at the magnetic data or the gravity data right these are a perfect
Kurtis Burmeister: Little kind of projects to do with a group in kind of like a flipped class type of setting where you get them to do prep work and read up on these data types and whatnot and
Kurtis Burmeister: And the steps that you would need to go through to interpret these types of data sets and then give it to a minute class either face to face, or even virtual probably
Kurtis Burmeister: And have helped them work through it and come to the conclusion. I think that'd be a really kind of positive thing in terms of like Kevin was saying, exposing them to the process of thinking of the field to field scientist.
Shannon Dulin: That's a super great idea because that's what I'm I feel like sometimes I give them data or information in at FIELD, CAMP. And they all complain. And they're like, why don't you give us visit field methods, you know, something like that.
Shannon Dulin: So it's like if this is like how to think, even if they don't
Shannon Dulin: Get it all. Maybe they should see it or maybe they can see something like this sooner. Absolutely.
Basil Tikoff: So the other suggestion, Shannon. Yes, and generally for everybody is the two PowerPoints that we work with the cognitive scientist to put together about data uncertainty.
Basil Tikoff: And model uncertainty.
Basil Tikoff: We already put on circ very early, because I thought they were so generally applicable to feel camp and field methods type settings so right because people get stuck on their model must be right. It's like your model is wrong just accept that and think about, like,
Basil Tikoff: You know,
Basil Tikoff: What could be better. How sure are you
Kevin Bohacs: Is it usable right
Absolutely.
Kurtis Burmeister: So yes, I'm at this point it's 930 if you have questions for bazell
Kurtis Burmeister: We are a small enough group where you folks should
Kurtis Burmeister: Feel free to unmute yourself and just chime in if you have any ideas or would like to talk about anything with regards to best practices or challenges that you're encountering with your own field camps. We can go that direction as well, whatever works best for you folks.
Chris Atchison: Might be current, it might be also useful to talk a little bit about this. I use project and and
Kurtis Burmeister: We can talk about that too. And so
Chris Atchison: Yeah.
Chris Atchison: Kind of record goals.
Kurtis Burmeister: I suspect a lot of the people in the room are having coffee as well.
Chris Atchison: Everybody's talked out
Scott Clark: Yeah. Hey, Kurt
Kurtis Burmeister: Yes, Scott.
Scott Clark: Um, could you talk a bit about what's working and what's not working right now. It was that you into because I'm our
Scott Clark: Our FIELD, CAMP one is going to be coming up in January and not sure we'll be able to go out and there are certain senior members in my department that
Scott Clark: Are going to be interested, at least at this point in even attempting an online version. And so I'm gonna have to get some compelling arguments for them.
Scott Clark: I we need to, and why we can't just say, oh, well, we'll hope somebody else teaches a full thing over the summer and our students can go there.
Kurtis Burmeister: I see. Um, first off,
Kurtis Burmeister: I see john IS HERE, JOHN guys minutes here john and
Kurtis Burmeister: Bob Krantz ran a pretty good discussion with regards to some of the challenges and best practices, they've encountered with FIELD, CAMP online field camps. They just finished recently and they did that two weeks ago. So you might want to check that video out as well. Oh.
Kurtis Burmeister: Yeah, sure. The
John Geissman: With more
Kurtis Burmeister: Go ahead. JOHN
John Geissman: I was just gonna say there's a lot more to be included in that discussion.
John Geissman: That discussion. Seems like an eternity ago as I, as I just
John Geissman: The chat box. I'm Nathan Amy and I are are now doing the University of Michigan's class we have 45 students in it.
John Geissman: And it's an incredible mix. I would say about 80% are bonafide geo majors. The others are sort of college majors and the only way we could run this class on in terms of university providing permission is that we combined literally the the ecology class that is taught by
John Geissman: Joel bloom and Don sack with our field geology class into one and we're running it for seven weeks again with 45 students, you know, and Nathan and I are doing right now, ending the first week and
John Geissman: Well, close to 50% of the students have not had sentimentality.
Kurtis Burmeister: Or Oh geez.
John Geissman: We think that all of them have had introductory Physical Geology of one form or another.
Kurtis Burmeister: That sounds like a pretty challenging situation.
John Geissman: Next week, Joel bloom and Don Zach take over for two weeks in terms of sort of
John Geissman: Environmental ecology and stuff so count on us to report back at some point in the near future, it is
Kurtis Burmeister: Sounds great. Yeah.
John Geissman: Areas. Oh, one thing I should mention I'm this may may really sound trivial, but, um, when I was teaching our field geology class. We used the social media, if you will call group me. Yeah.
John Geissman: One of the graduate student teaching assistants for the University of Michigan class suggested discord. I don't know if any of you have heard this.
John Geissman: Is outstanding on i can't i can't make. I can't say enough accolades about the utility of that program to engage students, you know I on a
John Geissman: Minute by Minute 24 hour a day basis. I literally have to take my laptop. I shouldn't say this, but take my life close to my pillow.
John Geissman: You know, it's just, it's really incredibly useful, you can do so many different things with it, you can you know obviously just work with students, it's, it's great.
John Geissman: Anyway,
Kurtis Burmeister: Sorry, yes. Thank you. We were us we're actually using
Kurtis Burmeister: Discord as well. And I see Shannon chiming in.
Kurtis Burmeister: In the text. I think she used slack for hers. Is that correct,
Shannon Dulin: Yeah, we use Slack. I mean, does I've used discord to they're both good but mad grouping. You can't. I got a problem with that in the field, just because
Shannon Dulin: People will
Shannon Dulin: Post up and you can't have any control over it so
John Geissman: Yeah. Yeah, I agree. It's, yeah.
John Geissman: Yeah. Never. I will never use group me again.
Shannon Dulin: It. Correct. Yes, I was in that same situation.
Kurtis Burmeister: So we, we actually do have a
Kurtis Burmeister: Pretty big spread it was that you went to kind of getting back to Scott's question. I'm not only do we have
Kurtis Burmeister: Somewhat narrower range of preparation than what john is dealing with, we have
Kurtis Burmeister: Some environmental science students, but most of them are traditional geology students are our challenges we're pulling stoop, we have about 4045 students as well. And we're
Kurtis Burmeister: Pulling them in from Universities from coast to coast and you know you know maybe as many as 10 different programs. So, or more, actually. And so that's been kind of a challenge the time zones and, you know, kind of scheduling.
Kurtis Burmeister: Breaks for food or lunch and whatnot, the start time and time office hours given kind of the span of Pacific East Coast time zones has been a really real challenge.
Kurtis Burmeister: But surprisingly, at least you know in like the two minute version here. I think I've been pleasantly surprised with regards to the number of challenges I expected to meet
Kurtis Burmeister: The things that we were kind of worried about ended up not being such an issue we've kind of had to fumble through some, you know, like for example appropriate
Kurtis Burmeister: Tools for students to work together with and we we kind of did the convergent evolution thing and ended up with discord as well.
Kurtis Burmeister: So that's been working pretty well we're managing the class in Canvas and we use discord as outside support and we do office hours and whatnot in discord as well.
Kurtis Burmeister: Some of the challenges we are really starting to see where in the normal curriculum when we're face to face, where we really rely on kind of impromptu face to face.
Kurtis Burmeister: Discussions and you know stage hints and, you know, leading questions and whatnot in the field to keep students on track. That is just impossible to do
Kurtis Burmeister: Effectively in the face to face environment. We've had to kind of shore up that in a number of different ways. Another kind of
Kurtis Burmeister: Unexpected benefit you know we were kind of a little bit worried about kind of giving students access to the field areas, all at once. You know, we were worried about them blasting through and missing stuff.
Kurtis Burmeister: And, you know, maybe 75% of the time the students are not blowing through fielders they're actually being quite systematic in their approach even using things like Google Earth.
Kurtis Burmeister: They are, you know, using Google Earth and all of the kind of advantages it offers to actually pop back and forth in the field area to check and recheck things to make sure that their hypotheses are in line with the with the stuff that they're observing
Kurtis Burmeister: I'm having said that, there is the potential for students to very quickly. We found very quickly kind of take the wrong step down the dark side of the
Kurtis Burmeister: Of the approach to field mapping where you know they can open up the map. And look, they think that they see some
Kurtis Burmeister: Some consistencies or whatnot, and they start firing in lines.
Kurtis Burmeister: And then they don't remember which lines were tentative and which lines that they were certain of
Kurtis Burmeister: And lo and behold, without, you know much ado, they suddenly have found themselves in a situation where they've got a whole bunch of lines on the map and they're trying to fit their geology to the lines that they drew on the fly and so
Kurtis Burmeister: We've had to really kind of stick their nose to it and force them to go back and use this the iterative process that they would normally have done in the field to compile their maps, not to kind of
Kurtis Burmeister: Hit hook up the cart in front of the horse, so to speak, but yeah. So there's been some pluses and minuses. But I think overall, the lessons that we're learning here are going to make the next face to face session even more effective.
Basil Tikoff: Is it that you need them to slow down a little bit. Kurt going to go in a more linear method or do they need to be basically more evaluated.
Basil Tikoff: Of their certainty.
Kurtis Burmeister: So that's it. That's a really good question. And so two examples we used the
Kurtis Burmeister: The virtual landscapes, probably the one that leads put together in. Was it called Lighthouse Bay, we use the lighthouse Bay activity and that
Kurtis Burmeister: The, the process of kind of approaching the virtual landscape slowed the students down enough where they didn't get ahead of themselves and that actually ended up being a fantastic
Kurtis Burmeister: Introductory mapping exercise if you're looking for something to incorporate it an introductory level in your online camp that Lighthouse BAY PROJECT was fantastic. Then we moved on to Ghost Ranch and Ghost Ranch. The
Kurtis Burmeister: The, the virtual activity that goes ranch. The students, again, kind of, because of the nature of the project and the things that they're asked to do
Kurtis Burmeister: weren't able to just go and going and get too far ahead of themselves and, you know, so they were kind of constrained to the to the iterative process that we would want them to approach something like that with and
Kurtis Burmeister: They were using Google Earth to their advantage and going back and forth in the field area, you know,
Kurtis Burmeister: over distances that it would take them half a day to hike under normal conditions. They were just popping back and forth and able to check and recheck things. And that worked out really, really well.
Kurtis Burmeister: And then we have them move on to my mind is blinking right now. Oh.
Kurtis Burmeister: We have them move on to a activity that one of our faculty members developed based upon a field there that they used to teach in when they were, I think, Penn State.
Kurtis Burmeister: Which is the you know the classic elk basin structure in Wyoming.
Kurtis Burmeister: And in that situation, they were given much more latitude with how they would approach the field with their teams or their group members.
Kurtis Burmeister: And this is one where given you had an unfettered access to the entire field there. They were just, you know, blasting in contacts from orbit, so to speak.
Kurtis Burmeister: And then got so far ahead of themselves that they literally in some cases had to just start all over. Because they've been such a mess of their map with regards to mixing up kind of
Kurtis Burmeister: Fairly certain observations to kind of total guesses and that turned out to be kind of a struggle so yes and no bazell but I think you're right on it like
Kurtis Burmeister: Given the potential to get ahead of themselves. Some will, and that's something you definitely need to be aware of and kind of be preemptive
Chris Atchison: Heard I'm almost wondering if you can't, if we shouldn't be trying to integrate a lot more of the things that bazell just presented on today.
Chris Atchison: To get students to see, at what level of confidence, they have in their data that they're collecting
Kurtis Burmeister: Absolutely, absolutely. And you know this is kind of you know when when bazell kind of met with the current
Scott Clark: Faculty it
Kurtis Burmeister: Was that you into
Kurtis Burmeister: To to the number we all saw the value in in the kind of the cognitive side of this project, I think, you know, evaluating observations evaluating hypotheses are things that you know are
Kurtis Burmeister: Kind of often left to just picking up through experience being able to vet these things and and evaluate evaluate these things on the fly.
Kurtis Burmeister: Actually having an activity that will walk them through the process and kind of demystify it is it's it's it's really, I think, going to be an effective approach.
Chris Atchison: Yeah, it's, it's the nature of science stuff that I don't think we give enough time to know
Kurtis Burmeister: I totally agree with that.
Kevin Bohacs: In terms of this is one of the questions I had early on in terms of training them for them. They actually really go out in the field. Did you given any thought about sort of
Kevin Bohacs: Basically, giving them only so much life force or essentially how many times they came back and forth.
Kevin Bohacs: Because like you say, you know, to go back and forth to check every outcropping not something they're going to be able to do, but kind of encourage them to think about where, what are the critical places they would need to go back to
Kurtis Burmeister: That are kind of it. That's an
Kurtis Burmeister: Interesting idea. I wonder how like you could work that into an activity. But yes, I mean I you know I think
Kurtis Burmeister: That's an excellent idea, but in all honesty, you know, we're basically putting out fires constantly as their as they arise and haven't really kind of gotten to
Kurtis Burmeister: That level of sophistication in the implementation of oh yeah
Kevin Bohacs: Please, God will be out in the field enough that we won't have to get to the you know the version 7.0 of the game.
Kevin Bohacs: But
Kurtis Burmeister: But the point, maybe we could do in the future, you know,
Kevin Bohacs: Or if it's just even just something in terms of just even having that discussion with them that, what did you like, oh, you could go. That was really cool to be able to go back and forth, you know, all these places. Now, when your field. How are you going to do that and
Kurtis Burmeister: Actually
Kevin Bohacs: You shouldn't take better notes are taking
Kevin Bohacs: Taking the critical photos with your, with your phone to let you sort of, what did you go back and look at maybe even that, you know,
Kurtis Burmeister: So that's, that's an interesting point that you make there. And actually, what if I was to kind of offer one more thing to Scott
Kurtis Burmeister: That would be a best practice for their implementation. If they end up doing an online. One is if you use a course management tool like canvas that has
Kurtis Burmeister: The ability to kind of pre program and pre schedule small quizzes. We've been doing a really short and informal assessments of all sorts of stuff.
Kurtis Burmeister: Kind of on an every other day basis throughout the first four weeks of camp where we asked him, maybe two, three or four questions in a very quick survey.
Kurtis Burmeister: On you know anything from, how are you doing is, you know, or or this are there stressors in your life that you're having trouble dealing with to, you know, what did you find effective about this activity, you know,
Kurtis Burmeister: Was Google Earth, a good tool for doing you so like
Kurtis Burmeister: Anything and everything that you're kind of interested in with regards to your students and how they're doing and how they're interfacing with these modules.
Kurtis Burmeister: Is something that you can do very quickly and get essentially instant feedback and be able to integrate and retool your approach for the next day. It's been really an effective thing to do.
Scott Clark: Great, thanks a lot.
Chris Atchison: I think I respond to Kevin here as well that that I, you know,
Chris Atchison: I think the goal is to get back in the field. Ultimately, but the normal that the new normal that we're heading towards isn't going to be like it used to be.
Chris Atchison: And this the capabilities of doing the field work like we're doing here. And that really high detail the high level detail that we're talking about right now.
Chris Atchison: Is going to create an accessibility like we've never seen before, not just for people who might have a disability, but for
Chris Atchison: People who have families who can't spend the amount of time in the field that we have traditionally expected them to be able to do or have financial obligations or anything that precludes them from spending six weeks or so in the field.
Chris Atchison: So I think
Chris Atchison: I think we want to consider how we can continue to enhance the and maybe get to that.
Seven.
Kevin Bohacs: I'm sorry. Um,
Kevin Bohacs: I think that's great. But once again.
Kevin Bohacs: Maybe one of the one of the, you know, things to bring to the top of their brain is okay, you've done all this remote data, which you'll probably never go in the field of having done that kind of homework again.
Kevin Bohacs: How do you focus in on the critical places, you know, can you get a wheelchair there or, you know, are you going to have to get somebody, you can actually get go over there.
Kevin Bohacs: Or you only have for the people who can't go away for a month, like you have a week to actually go collect samples and come up with new data, you know, this would be a good way of teaching people how to
Kevin Bohacs: Do that, too. I would think.
Chris Atchison: Yeah, I really like that hybrid idea there to Kevin, it's a it's certainly something that we're heading towards
Basil Tikoff: That's great. That's Erika questions and she's doing a very different approach. And I'm wondering, does the Minecraft keep people, because people can't do the jumping back and forth thing with that approach. Does that, does it kind of keep them on task, doing things in a logical order.
Erika Rader: Actually they
Erika Rader: They went back into the game multiple times. Some people were in there all the time going back and forth, back and forth, because they can actually run pretty fast and cover the area.
Erika Rader: They can just sprint all over the place and they don't run out of energy they do run out of energy. You have to give them food, but other than that.
Erika Rader: They did go back, way more than they would have been able to in the real world. So yeah, we didn't really address that very much. I didn't know if that was a bad thing or good thing.
Erika Rader: I took it as a good thing because it meant that they were in. They were fixing the problems that they had had but yeah
Kurtis Burmeister: Like the idea of having to feed your students.
Erika Rader: Yeah, and the beginning I didn't really know how to do it well and so they had, they kept asking every like five minutes and it was it got to be kind of a running joke. I figured it out eventually.
Kurtis Burmeister: Just like
Kurtis Burmeister: Always. Yeah.
Kurtis Burmeister: Yeah. When Kevin mentioned like giving them a life force or something like that. I immediately images of making the the sheep in Lighthouse base attack sheep.
Kurtis Burmeister: kind of popped into my
Kurtis Burmeister: Head popped into my mind. Keep them, keep them going.
Kurtis Burmeister: Area Shannon had a follow up question.
Shannon Dulin: I just had a question for you guys who are in it or the thick of it or whatever because I struggled with my
Shannon Dulin: LM s which we have Canvas to but one of the very first in a GT talks was about like how to teach online and I decided to set it up by week
Shannon Dulin: As opposed to buy exercises like I always do in regular class, but I just wanted to know what how people are doing it. Especially you guys with the big ones john Kurt and stuff.
Kurtis Burmeister: So we, we set ourselves up in weeks. And so we're using Canvas. We're using two things heavily using pages and the modules section in Canvas. So
Kurtis Burmeister: We have kind of broken the program down into weeks and in those weeks we have essentially lectures or discussions activities which are things that are
Kurtis Burmeister: Designed to reinforce the lectures and the videos that we're having them watch and they have to submit work, but the work is not carefully graded it's graded for completion.
Kurtis Burmeister: And then we have what are called what we're calling exercises which are the kind of quote unquote projects where they have to submit work that is going to be assessed using rubrics and whatnot and are
Kurtis Burmeister: The major kind of contributors to their grade. Um, so we take the pages and in each page for each activity or for each lecture or for each exercise.
Kurtis Burmeister: On the page is where we put all the links to resources and all of the kind of rubric information and all of the parameters for the activity or whatever the assignment is
Kurtis Burmeister: So it doesn't model up the the module section and makes the module section a little bit easier for them to navigate
Kurtis Burmeister: And also in the module section we have chunks or modules set aside for indexes of all the learning via video learning instructional videos that we've produced and, you know, links to resources and whatnot so they they can be kind of separated out from the daily course related activities.
Kurtis Burmeister: Because yeah, I think it's really easy for the students to get lost.
Shannon Dulin: Yeah, that's, that's what I found. And I thought that was a really good idea. So your pages is a link underneath your like week one law.
Shannon Dulin: Okay, so
Shannon Dulin: And you have like every activity or is it
Shannon Dulin: All the activities for that week.
Kurtis Burmeister: No, yeah, we have a page for every activity so
Kurtis Burmeister: You know I'm
Kurtis Burmeister: Just and it's been effective. This was kind of Karen grands idea.
Kurtis Burmeister: Cuz she's done a lot of teaching online, actually. And what having all of your materials for a particular project.
Kurtis Burmeister: embedded into a page dedicated to that project does is it actually allows you when you want to refer back to previous work to link those pages.
Kurtis Burmeister: In subsequent pages so they can go back and with one click the back to a page that has all the resources that they use for previous activity so they can you know
Kurtis Burmeister: remind themselves of rubrics components or remind themselves of, you know, the instructional video for this one step in drafting a cross section or whatever, without having to just kind of re invent the link trees and stuff for every single new activity.
Shannon Dulin: And that's fantastic. Okay, I will go that way now.
Shannon Dulin: That worked really well.
Kurtis Burmeister: Erica, you mentioned something. Oh, is that the this is green apples. What you feed the students
Erika Rader: Yeah, the there's like regular apples, which don't give them very much energy and I had been giving them regular apples, because it seemed healthy and then they complained and said it was golden apples.
Erika Rader: Yeah, golden animals that that became the stage for the rest of
Kurtis Burmeister: Noted.
Shannon Dulin: Noted. So in a survival mode. I mean this Minecraft survival mode.
Shannon Dulin: That's amazing. I wish you could put like deadly snakes in there, though, that seems like it would be better.
Erika Rader: That was our, our, the bribery that we did to get them to fill out their evaluation forms was if
Erika Rader: I have a certain percentage, then we would let them spawn things and have fun in the world.
Shannon Dulin: At some amazing
Kurtis Burmeister: John you folks use Canvas as
Kurtis Burmeister: Well, didn't you
John Geissman: Yes indeed extensive
John Geissman: Yeah okay so
John Geissman: I was just gonna say Nick Nathan did a real. So we're using Canvas to the University of Michigan Nathan did a really good job of of organizing everything in the context of sort of a module format.
John Geissman: And and all of the necessary materials were placed into files. And then in the modules that described each exercise or each week and the exercises in it. Then they were always linked to the files, it's worked out really well. Cool.
Very cool.
Scott Clark: Hey Chris, or current. I've got a question again.
Chris Atchison: Sure, yeah.
I'm
Scott Clark: Kirk is your writing that you're doing on the side us and Chris because of just in general.
Scott Clark: So small departments where hopefully in the future are expected in the future will be going taking our students back out to the field.
Scott Clark: But every now and then you're definitely going to have one or two students who that's just not an option for them for the all the reasons that that Chris, you mentioned earlier, is anybody considering
Scott Clark: Offering a online going forward and online virtual field camp for people from across the country. Could you know enroll in that as anybody looking at an idea like that.
Chris Atchison: Yes.
Kurtis Burmeister: We are we are getting ready to do that. It was actually
Scott Clark: You're looking to make was set up so because it's it's two things you'd still be taking people out in the field right Kurt
Scott Clark: Then having a yeah
Kurtis Burmeister: So offering both
Scott Clark: Yeah, because it's small department, we couldn't offer both that's just untenable.
Kurtis Burmeister: But as part of the University of Wisconsin system, you can just tap right into the consortium Wasatch winter.
Scott Clark: Yeah okay yeah yeah
Kurtis Burmeister: I mean with yeah pay in state tuition and have no problems. Yeah it, that would be not a problem.
Scott Clark: And you guys are definitely going to
Scott Clark: Do both
Kurtis Burmeister: We're trying to figure out when we're going to do it, you know.
Kurtis Burmeister: There's some faculty that think that we should be doing it, you know, at the same time as the face to face, and like, there aren't enough DRUGS IN THE WORLD TO MAKE It MAKE THAT. OKAY.
Kurtis Burmeister: I don't, I don't know how I would, I would be able to run those two shows at the same time. But, you know, one thing that we've kind of talked about is there are there are members of our faculty that have, have a good one, Kevin.
Kurtis Burmeister: That have struggle getting away from their homes for three or six weeks during the summer but want to teach FIELD, CAMP or what to teach this type of stuff. So, you know, we might actually end up running them at the same time, but just with two different faculties.
Scott Clark: Yeah yeah
Chris Atchison: You know, one and follow that up, Scott Steve Whitmire and I have been having conversations about that very thing.
Chris Atchison: Of more of a consortium of a national kind of feel to both and in person and accessibility in person FIELD, CAMP and also a virtual version of it too. So
Chris Atchison: I think that might be kind of a natural step to bring some folks together who are interested in considering how we can develop one
Chris Atchison: Main camp where people can can come to open enrollment, perhaps, I'm not really sure. But I think that that's certainly something that needs to happen and it is not necessarily time
Chris Atchison: Constrained it wouldn't have to be time constrained. If it was virtual
Kurtis Burmeister: tricky thing. And I think that that's a really good idea and, like, maybe we should talk about this more
Kurtis Burmeister: I think the, the biggest challenge that we're going to encounter with with something like that is something similar to what was that you it is dealing with because we have people coming from so many different
Kurtis Burmeister: Programs in addition to like the normal hiccups that this would cause where you know you've got a whole bunch of students that took
Kurtis Burmeister: Structure from Professor A versus the other ones that took students with students who took structure from Professor be at a different institution, you know, and they have different ideas about how to can construct cross sections or whatever.
Kurtis Burmeister: Is accessibility to technology software licenses all those different types of things course management systems.
Kurtis Burmeister: Right now all of our outside of consortium students are being run through the University of Minnesota Duluth Duluth has a whole bunch of really positive real real positive things going for it with regards to how they handle
Kurtis Burmeister: Computer licenses and even server time on on their kind of computing servers to run things like our GIS virtually or, you know, from a distance.
Kurtis Burmeister: But then there's a whole bunch of students that are in the in the camp. Very same camp who are working with partners that have access these resources that don't. And that is actually caused quite a bit of headaches. That's one of the areas that we've struggled with quite a bit.
Kurtis Burmeister: So we would have to sort that out before we did something on a much bigger scale.
Chris Atchison: All right, then it's good question. Scott, something we need to certainly follow up on
Scott Clark: Yeah, I'm looking forward to
Scott Clark: See how this progresses. I think this could be so big, for the very long term.
Kurtis Burmeister: Yep, yep. Look to have it.
Kurtis Burmeister: That maybe we should look
Kurtis Burmeister: To call a meeting for online about that, like later in the summer after the cancer done
Chris Atchison: Yeah, because we need more meetings, Kurt
Kurtis Burmeister: Yes.
Kurtis Burmeister: I mean, what am I gonna do with my life.
Chris Atchison: Now I'm not worried about you.
Chris Atchison: All right, how about we wrap this up.
Kurtis Burmeister: I think so too. Thank you everybody for contributing and coming to this last show
John Geissman: Thanks, everyone. Yeah, great.
Kurtis Burmeister: Absolutely.
Chris Atchison: Take care everybody
Kurtis Burmeister: Take care.
Shannon Dulin: So many stay on.
Kurtis Burmeister: Yeah, yeah. Might as well.
Kurtis Burmeister: So Chris and I
Kurtis Burmeister: You know, we're reading this, this, I use proposal.
Kurtis Burmeister: And yeah, you were at the meeting the racism meeting right
Shannon Dulin: No, I wasn't. I didn't watch it, but I like it.
Um,
Kurtis Burmeister: What are the people that have signed on to this project I'm Johnny whoo at
Kurtis Burmeister: University of Houston.
Kurtis Burmeister: Houston is
Kurtis Burmeister: Really interested in kind of developing a series of podcasts to kind of highlight
Kurtis Burmeister: Experiences of folks from underrepresented groups who have struggled with certain aspects of the field. And you know how they overcame these challenges and whatnot and and
Kurtis Burmeister: So he's looking to develop the series. He's got a colleague in Houston, who actually does podcast producing
Chris Atchison: It's that it's geology radio show in it.
Kurtis Burmeister: I think so.
Kurtis Burmeister: I think so, but yeah.
Kurtis Burmeister: This guy actually is. I don't know if a specialist is the right term, but he like focuses on
Kurtis Burmeister: Experiences that are traumatic traumatic. So like you know how people deal with trauma and whatnot. So it's actually kind of creepy. How appropriate that actually might be
Kurtis Burmeister: But, you know, Johnny has expressed to me a couple of times that he's very nervous. He doesn't have any experience and he feels that he's he's going to quickly find himself in over his head. And I said, I know the perfect person that you should talk to about
Kurtis Burmeister: She
Kurtis Burmeister: You've kind of just jumped into the deep end and done it and
Shannon Dulin: Yeah, I can.
Kurtis Burmeister: Produce those things. So if it's okay with you. I will give them your contact information and send them your way.
Shannon Dulin: Oh yeah, no, absolutely. I mean, we've had ours for like five years or something like that. So that would be we've interviewed tons of people. So that'd be great. Yeah.
Kurtis Burmeister: Yeah I noticed that I kind of flipped through some of yours, and they're they're
Kurtis Burmeister: Great. I think that's fantastic stuff so
Kurtis Burmeister: Um, yeah. So expect that expect some some random guy from Houston to reach out to you in the near
Shannon Dulin: happens more often than I would like to admit. But that's fine.
Very good.
Kurtis Burmeister: People hit. Yep.
Shannon Dulin: Oh yeah, exactly.
Shannon Dulin: And we have this one guy that listens and he's not even a geosciences and that dude sends us voice like messages correcting how we pronounce things and all this shit. And so, yeah, that guy's probably not ready for that cuz it's gonna be bad.
Kurtis Burmeister: Really
Shannon Dulin: Oh, his name's Bart and it's the worst.
Shannon Dulin: But yeah, I will. Yeah, anything he wants. That's totally cool, I'll be for the
Kurtis Burmeister: Christmas put in
Chris Atchison: As far as name's Daniel Manzini
Kurtis Burmeister: I don't think I don't think that's his name it.
Kurtis Burmeister: Must be a different guy.
Chris Atchison: This. Yeah. So this is a link to his mini geology runs a radio show there in Houston and just
Chris Atchison: Give us a whole bunch of people
Chris Atchison: About different things. And he's been on this broadening participation kick lately.
Kurtis Burmeister: Cool.
Chris Atchison: Yeah, it's pretty me
Shannon Dulin: I will take that up. Awesome.
Kurtis Burmeister: Ready. Yes. Thank you very much.
Shannon Dulin: I would love to be involved to with this. I was going to try to turn my stuff into an alternate FIELD, CAMP as well. So if there's room for me, but that's
Chris Atchison: Always I'm finishing and
Shannon Dulin: Trust me, you're
Kurtis Burmeister: You're like, you know, it's, it's like it's like you know you know Scott George's right
Shannon Dulin: I don't
Kurtis Burmeister: Know, Scott. He's like one of my one of my research colleagues and his quote is, I just love knowing people who know how to do shit.
Kurtis Burmeister: Like
Kurtis Burmeister: That that's a, you know, so it's like
Kurtis Burmeister: When you look to you as somebody who knows how to do stuff.
Shannon Dulin: Oh, wow. Hopefully not someone that answers my email because I don't do that very well.
Chris Atchison: And it might be, you know, we might not visit this until after we get that I use proposal submitted, but we'll put together a group of people to have a conversation about how we can take all of this stuff that we've done through this rapid project and and make it sustainable. Yeah.
Shannon Dulin: Yeah, I, I, I'd hate for all this to go to waste. And it's like it just every year we have students that oh you winds up making them get
Shannon Dulin: You know, General degrees. And it's like, at first I was like, Yeah, you should be able to go in the field, but now it's like that's not really. That's not fair.
Chris Atchison: Yeah.
Shannon Dulin: So I've already talked to the dean about doing it, but I'll hold off on moving forward. If this is something like big that's happening, that'd be great.
Chris Atchison: Yeah, that's, I think, I think it's a really great natural progression here. Yeah.
Shannon Dulin: I agree.
Shannon Dulin: We'll see. Awesome.
Shannon Dulin: Thank you guys so much.
Chris Atchison: Thank you.
Shannon Dulin: Pleasure. Yeah, thank you later.
Chris Atchison: All right. Bye bye.
Alrighty.
Kurtis Burmeister: I will pull this stuff down
Kurtis Burmeister: And get it posted up there. And today I will get the racism talk posted to because I haven't done
Chris Atchison: Okay, yeah, when will share that back out or
With
Chris Atchison: Yeah, so that that proposal, I sent you.
Chris Atchison: Know it's going to change because I put 60% in I think it's probably like 60 and a half. There's just, there's no way that I'm going to be able to
Chris Atchison: To get them to consider an off campus rate to because it's all meetings and you
Kurtis Burmeister: Know, I kind of
Kurtis Burmeister: So the preliminary budget that I threw together with Sac State had just we just estimated 60% for you actually
Kurtis Burmeister: Okay. Yeah. So yeah, we yeah yeah
Kurtis Burmeister: There's
A far
Kurtis Burmeister: Well, so we had Laura. Laura and for a month and I knocked her down to half month and then this sociologist that we're bringing on board to help with the ethnography. He's
Kurtis Burmeister: We had her at
Kurtis Burmeister: Half a month in the first year and a week in the second year.
Kurtis Burmeister: And she said that all she wanted was a week in the second year. So we took her out.
Chris Atchison: Wow.
Kurtis Burmeister: And that is dropped us down to I think we're right about 8000 over right now.
Kurtis Burmeister: Also not too bad. But then we still have not
Kurtis Burmeister: I have my actually let me
Kurtis Burmeister: Pull out my wish list here. We still have not worked in compensation for people actually sharing their stories. Say for example, like with a Johnny's podcasts and whatnot.
Kurtis Burmeister: Um, one of the thing that we've things that I've heard in your experience might be different. I don't know. This is probably a good question for you.
Kurtis Burmeister: Is people who are sharing their kind of racism related or sexual harassment related traumas.
Kurtis Burmeister: Are actually being compensated for these things and doing it without compensation might lead to what was word that Laura.
Kurtis Burmeister: might not be the best approach.
Kurtis Burmeister: Yeah, so
Chris Atchison: Using them for their
Kurtis Burmeister: Yeah, for
Kurtis Burmeister: Some sort of compensation, you know, in addition to having the support infrastructure in
Chris Atchison: Racing. Let me, let me, let me give you an idea here. Remember we talked about the supplemental funding.
Kurtis Burmeister: Yes, the city.
Chris Atchison: All right into this proposal that we want to disseminate some of these stories.
Chris Atchison: anonymized stories, right. The only thing that we're doing for this proposal is we're developing this instrument might pilot the instrument and we haven't really gone far into the dissemination of
Chris Atchison: Of outcomes yet. And so maybe that piece of sharing those stories and compensating the people for sharing those. Maybe that's a piece that we write as a supplement as an additional broader impact.
Chris Atchison: Because we can
Kurtis Burmeister: Read it.
Chris Atchison: It's we can seek $60,000 more
Kurtis Burmeister: I'm just writing it down.
Chris Atchison: Yeah, no problem.
Chris Atchison: So we're trying to leave that out of this proposal, don't talk about dissemination that much yet.
Kurtis Burmeister: Right, just kind of list some of our ideas and leave it at that.
Chris Atchison: Mm hmm. And then immediately if it's funded saying hey you know what we've been thinking
Chris Atchison: That sharing some of these stories right now as a way of getting the community to see the the personal side of the issue.
Chris Atchison: Is something that we can do immediately. And so we want to write a supplement that's going to incentivize or not that's bad word that's going to support or
Kurtis Burmeister: Recognize that our interviews. Yeah.
Chris Atchison: Yeah, people for for for stepping out of that zone or
Chris Atchison: We want to. We want to make them anonymous anyway so
Kurtis Burmeister: So let me say this.
Chris Atchison: I think that might be you know if that's on your wish list. I think that the supplement can really support that and it's I think it's an easy request.
Kurtis Burmeister: So,
Kurtis Burmeister: Actually, that's not a bad idea. So I think
Kurtis Burmeister: To throw one of the other things on the wish list is actually Mental Health First Aid certification for us.
Chris Atchison: Yeah, we need to put that on this grant, though.
Kurtis Burmeister: So on the grant. Right. So, yes.
Chris Atchison: That's a priority.
Chris Atchison: I don't know how did you did you happen to find out how much those are
Kurtis Burmeister: So, so the actually getting the certification is not a, not a big problem. Actually, I'm
Kurtis Burmeister: The Muslim students Association of America actually runs programs around the US and I, when I took it. I think it was like $75 or something like that or hundred $50 for two days, but I'm
Kurtis Burmeister: The kicker or the, you know, so that's it's a non issue. It's small, the really useful thing for us at some point. And maybe this is actually something that should go into a supplement is actually getting certified as instructors for mental health first aid.
Chris Atchison: Yeah.
Kurtis Burmeister: We get snacks actually much more expensive.
Chris Atchison: I agree that, you know, in our grant, we say that we're going to go through the training and then all of a sudden when we've been through the training we realize we need to do this for our students.
Chris Atchison: And so therefore, as part of this supplement we're seeking funds to be able to get that training.
Chris Atchison: The train the trainer. That's a great supplemental request after we've already requested to go through the training.
Chris Atchison: In the, in the regular grand
Kurtis Burmeister: I'm writing this down.
Kurtis Burmeister: Okay.
Kurtis Burmeister: Yeah, that's, that's a good idea.
Kurtis Burmeister: The other thing that hasn't been put into the proposal yet is Amy mere Bose.
Chris Atchison: Fee evaluation.
Kurtis Burmeister: And like so we met with her yesterday. And she's like, totally jazzed to be on this project and I hope so because she's got like a lot of experience with this type of project. Yeah, but like it was surprisingly difficult to get her to commit to like what that's gonna look like you know
Chris Atchison: She's new to doing this.
Kurtis Burmeister: Right. Yeah. I kind of got that feeling. Yeah.
Chris Atchison: Yeah, she's new to doing this. I mean, maybe, maybe you're a couple of years into this scene. So she's probably had to kind of take a step back and really think about it before she provides something. Yeah.
Kurtis Burmeister: So Laura is can I kind of lateral that football to Laura in I'm gonna let her take that and figure that out. But, um, you know, like we kind of ballpark 10 grand or something like that for that kind of thing.
Kurtis Burmeister: And she said that she would be willing to help us tweak and fine tune the proposal for pro bono. So that's, that's good. Um, the other thing is
Kurtis Burmeister: I haven't included stuff for Jessica yet.
Kurtis Burmeister: So Eric, says that Jessica has got funding for like the next three years. But I think it's important to have her in the budget somehow
Chris Atchison: Yeah. So what I just did on a on a proposal of mine that I'm submitting on Monday is that it's it for tuition, everything's already funded, you can throw in some some some summer salary for
Chris Atchison: You know, maybe a couple thousand each summer for summer salary.
Kurtis Burmeister: Alright, um,
Kurtis Burmeister: I yeah I talked to Eric about this.
Kurtis Burmeister: Over text or something. Yesterday, day before yesterday. He said, another route that might work is just some kind of nebulously defined m&s for that she can use however she sees fit.
Kurtis Burmeister: To kind of because I gather support. Well, it takes care of tuition and all that stuff doesn't necessarily give her money for software licenses and things like that so
Kurtis Burmeister: That might be another way to do it, too, or maybe both.
And
Chris Atchison: I don't think it's going to be any different.
Chris Atchison: In terms of indirect if you give if you have, you know, salary money versus that kind of money. I think it's all the same indirect though.
Okay.
Kurtis Burmeister: Well, I will ask Eric, what he thinks.
Kurtis Burmeister: And what do you think, so we will work best.
Chris Atchison: Right.
Kurtis Burmeister: And then, um, so I met with Cirque yesterday or Lauren, I met with Cirque yesterday. That was a shit show
Chris Atchison: Was a rolling
Kurtis Burmeister: Do you know what's her name Allen Iverson
Chris Atchison: I know of her. I don't know, or well
Kurtis Burmeister: To like she we got 15 minutes and she blew 15 she blew seven of it, asking some questions that nobody could figure out and essentially reflected the fact that she didn't read the proposal.
Kurtis Burmeister: You know, but, you know, fortunately, Kathy kind of shut that down and like got things back on track and
Kurtis Burmeister: So I don't have you had a chance to read through that bulleted list in read that I put together in the proposal on the the app, the database and whatnot.
Kurtis Burmeister: So there are a few things that we need to make sure to include in this development in order to meet the things
Kurtis Burmeister: That we're going to have to have in place to collect these data and they're all kind of really specific types of programming types of things, you know, basically related to how the data are encrypted how they're stored
Kurtis Burmeister: The interface between the app and the
Kurtis Burmeister: Database when signal is interrupted.
Kurtis Burmeister: The ability for the database to have essentially queries of it and return things and then
Kurtis Burmeister: Whether or not the app is developed natively as a brand new code is written, or if it's you developed using existing what they call stacks.
Kurtis Burmeister: And so there's also these little things and one of the biggest problems that the guy that I talked to was concerned about is the way that the servers at server setup.
Kurtis Burmeister: Because depending on how they're set up, it could be just, you know, impossible to do
Kurtis Burmeister: Right. Um, but turns out Cirque actually contracts with Amazon.
Kurtis Burmeister: And Amazon essentially has light switches for all the different levels of incorruptibility and whatnot. I don't think that
Kurtis Burmeister: Search actually understands this. But the guy that I'm talking to does. And so this could be huge. So that means that we're going to have to worry less about developing the database and we can focus on the app.
Kurtis Burmeister: But the ballpark for that is still somewhere in the 75,000 $100,000 range.
Kurtis Burmeister: Yeah, so the problem is is like, from what I understand is, you need somebody who's actually experienced in what they call the architecture of
Kurtis Burmeister: How these things are built and how they interface and to make sure that you know there's no kinks in the encryption and all that stuff.
Kurtis Burmeister: So that's, I mean they can they can charge a premium essentially are the other thing that my colleague suggested is that we actually hire what's called a program lead or a program owner
Kurtis Burmeister: Who is basically their role is like a liaison between us and and the developer, because we don't we lack the technical
Kurtis Burmeister: Skills to understand what we're really asking for
Kurtis Burmeister: And we don't really have the skills to evaluate what they deliver
Kurtis Burmeister: So somebody who can actually do that for us. And so, you know, that's probably another 10 grand or something like that.
Chris Atchison: So I'm wondering, right, that
Chris Atchison: That a majority of this project is this. Yeah, right.
Chris Atchison: Yeah, it's almost like an equipment.
Chris Atchison: solely because we're not going to be able to do a whole lot of
Chris Atchison: Piloting
Chris Atchison: On the, the amount of funds that were
Kurtis Burmeister: Well, I don't, I think, yes and no. Right. I mean, I kind of have a captive audience with the field camps.
Kurtis Burmeister: Mm hmm. You know, and last year.
Kurtis Burmeister: At least three schools signed up to do a paper based dry run
Kurtis Burmeister: So it's our you know the the pilot of at least the survey tools has already started or some of the survey tools right
Kurtis Burmeister: So if we're able to develop this app, you know, and then get it in place before next summer, you know, even if it's only five more camps. You know, it will be a nonzero right i mean we'll get some data.
Kurtis Burmeister: Right. And then, you know, if I can get Sac State to do it. That year, or something like that, when we started teaching the field. Again, then we have some non FIELD, CAMP data and you know for the first two years. I think that's sufficient especially to go back
Kurtis Burmeister: To ask for a level two.
Chris Atchison: Yeah, correct. So
Chris Atchison: Given that, you know, we're looking at 75,000 and then another 10 for somebody to liaise between that. I mean, we're going back up closer to 350 again.
Kurtis Burmeister: Yeah, it's going to be tight but you know i've been i've I'm kind of trying maybe naively to think that I've been generous on the categories. And when we tighten the belt. It will, it'll be in line. Yeah, and I'm still
Chris Atchison: When, when you when you do that, just think about what we can ask for now and what we might be able to hold off on and asking for a supplement
Kurtis Burmeister: Well i think i think that moving the podcast compensation for for folks sharing and you know the Mental Health First Aid certification.
Kurtis Burmeister: Trainer certification. Yeah, yeah. Being able to pull those things out. That's huge. I'm like the
Kurtis Burmeister: That basically allows us to have the money that we need in there for the advisory board. Okay, so we've got I think the last, the last take that Laura threw in there was kale.
Kurtis Burmeister: 10 people on the student advisory board and maybe three faculty members on the on the faculty advisory board.
Kurtis Burmeister: With you know essentially I think it worked out to about 20 grand or 15 grand total for everything we're compensation for the advisory board.
Kurtis Burmeister: So yeah, I mean that's already in there and it's, you know, we're only about eight eight over right now. So I think it'll, it'll work. And if worst case I'm still in it a month. But worst case scenario, I can just knock down to half week half a month, too. So
Chris Atchison: Yeah, I mean, we can we can certainly go. We'll think about what your one versus your tues going to look like. And I can drop down from, you know, I have to up to a week and one of those years or whatever.
Kurtis Burmeister: Yeah, me too. So, so there is still wiggle room, you know, just a matter of tweaking and fine tuning. But I think we'll be okay.
Chris Atchison: What do you have rigs and
Kurtis Burmeister: He said in a week.
Chris Atchison: Yeah, cuz he's fucking expensive. Yeah.
Kurtis Burmeister: He's like pimp daddy, man.
Kurtis Burmeister: Geez ruler.
Kurtis Burmeister: Yeah, so
Kurtis Burmeister: I think. Yeah. So yeah, I guess you and Laura and Eric are meeting on Tuesday or something.
Chris Atchison: Yeah, we're not going to be able to Laura's got a busy day we're going to continue to work remotely through this
Chris Atchison: Okay documents and then we're going to catch up on Tuesday when we all meet
Chris Atchison: Yeah, and get a plan for for finding another time during the week to meet at the rest of that week.
Kurtis Burmeister: So yeah, and then
Kurtis Burmeister: The budget.
Kurtis Burmeister: With all the wonderful things that you guys have been coming back with that law, go back into CS us. Oh, SP early next week and then
Kurtis Burmeister: Our contact there will start passing around that budget and getting it approved and then as soon as we can get kind of
Kurtis Burmeister: A new summary or even at least a full draft of the proposal, even if it's sketchy start sharing that at CES us as well to get routed around and approved. Um, but yeah. So next week. I think it's gonna suck. But once that's done, you know, it'll just be fine tuning hopefully
Chris Atchison: Yeah, I think so, too, I think. I think we're in good shape here that, like, like you said, the budget routing is always the toughest part getting everybody in communication with them. There's a lot of people on this grant
Kurtis Burmeister: There are a lot of people, but I think if we started if we had any fewer it wouldn't fly.
Chris Atchison: Right.
Kurtis Burmeister: We don't have the diversity.
Chris Atchison: We need to really talk about how all these pieces fit together here.
Kurtis Burmeister: Yes, we do.
Chris Atchison: And then when we get this and submitted and then we can start talking about
You know,
Kurtis Burmeister: The next day,
Chris Atchison: Breaking new idea. We just talked about today.
Kurtis Burmeister: Yeah, so that one is interesting. It's worth. Yeah, I think it's worth thinking about. So
Chris Atchison: Yeah, I know what my and I've been talking about that for a while and bring you in and Shannon say okay where does this go
Chris Atchison: Yeah, I think that's, I think that's a perfect geo paths project waiting to happen.
Kurtis Burmeister: Sounds good to me.
Chris Atchison: Yeah, and I think that's do those are doing either January or February.
Kurtis Burmeister: Will get a break.
Kurtis Burmeister: What am I gonna do with my life. Yeah.
Chris Atchison: Well, maybe you can start a new job.
Kurtis Burmeister: Yeah, that's right. I'm supposed to go get my keys on Tuesday for my new office.
Kurtis Burmeister: Then I get to figure out how to move my shit from Pacific
Exactly.
Chris Atchison: All right, brother. Let me know if you need anything between now and Tuesday and
Chris Atchison: I'll see you on Tuesday. Me.
Kurtis Burmeister: Will do. Sounds good.
Kurtis Burmeister: Anybody. Bye bye.